[kenrexford]

P-1♠-2♦-2♠
3♣?

[gnasher]

Haven't we had this about a dozen times before? It's obviously best to pay this as a fit bid, unless you think it obviously best to play it as natural.

[rogerclee]

Fitted is silly, would never play this agreement, it is clearly worse than natural, would certainly not assume this is fitted without discussion in a million years, even though I play fit non jumps in other situations.

[cherdano]

rogerclee, on Jan 5 2009, 07:10 AM, said:

Fitted is silly, would never play this agreement, it is clearly worse than natural, would certainly not assume this is fitted without discussion in a million years, even though I play fit non jumps in other situations.

Where do you play FNJ?

[FrancesHinden]

rogerclee, on Jan 5 2009, 01:10 PM, said:

Fitted is silly, would never play this agreement, it is clearly worse than natural, would certainly not assume this is fitted without discussion in a million years, even though I play fit non jumps in other situations.

I don't get this. If you play FNJs, why would you not play 3C as one here? If you had clubs and hearts you would double. If you have only clubs, how come you want to bid at the 3-level now but weren't prepared to open? So either you ahve clubs and diamonds, or you have clubs and spades. If the former, you want to made a bid showing that. If the latter, you can probably pass as partner is short in spades and is likely to reopen.

(I still play this one as a FNJ)

[rogerclee]

cherdano, on Jan 5 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

rogerclee, on Jan 5 2009, 07:10 AM, said:

Fitted is silly, would never play this agreement, it is clearly worse than natural, would certainly not assume this is fitted without discussion in a million years, even though I play fit non jumps in other situations.

Where do you play FNJ?

pass 1♥ 1♠ 2♥
3♣

pass pass pass 1♥
2♣ 2♥ 2♠

and the various other obvious places.

[rogerclee]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 5 2009, 06:32 AM, said:

If you have only clubs, how come you want to bid at the 3-level now but weren't prepared to open? So either you ahve clubs and diamonds, or you have clubs and spades. If the former, you want to made a bid showing that. If the latter, you can probably pass as partner is short in spades and is likely to reopen.

1) Because I am a maximum 3325, and both pass and double are unacceptable.
2) Let's say I have clubs and spades (though as above, I don't see why I can't be 3325), it is clearly better to show values here at the 3-level than to wait for partner to double and either punt 3N or go all the way to the 4-level.

[FrancesHinden]

rogerclee, on Jan 5 2009, 01:35 PM, said:

cherdano, on Jan 5 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

rogerclee, on Jan 5 2009, 07:10 AM, said:

Fitted is silly, would never play this agreement, it is clearly worse than natural, would certainly not assume this is fitted without discussion in a million years, even though I play fit non jumps in other situations.

Where do you play FNJ?

pass 1♥ 1♠ 2♥
3♣

pass pass pass 1♥
2♣ 2♥ 2♠

and the various other obvious places.

"Obvious?". It seems to be splitting hairs to play the P - 1H - 1S - 2H - 3C as FNJ but not 1S - 2x - 2S - 3C.

And your second one P - 1H - 2C - 2H - 2S - is one where I would not play 2S as a FNJ, because I might be, um, 6421 or let's see, 5332....

I can think of four possible, to my mind sensible/consistent rules for these passed hand bids:

1. They are all FNJs
2. They are all natural
3. They are FNJs at the 3-level and natural at the 2-level
4. They are natural below 3 of partner's suit and FNJ's above

but you seem to want to play something else, and I can't see what your logic is.

[helene_t]

FNJ. P is on lead and since I preempt with all sorts of crap I cannot have clubs only.

[rogerclee]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 5 2009, 06:58 AM, said:

"Obvious?".  It seems to be splitting hairs to play the P - 1H - 1S - 2H - 3C as FNJ but not 1S - 2x - 2S - 3C.

And your second one P - 1H - 2C - 2H - 2S - is one where I would not play 2S as a FNJ, because I might be, um, 6421 or let's see, 5332....

I can think of four possible, to my mind sensible/consistent rules for these passed hand bids:

1. They are all FNJs
2. They are all natural
3. They are FNJs at the 3-level and natural at the 2-level
4. They are natural below 3 of partner's suit and FNJ's above

but you seem to want to play something else, and I can't see what your logic is.

I didn't mean to say that my two examples were obvious FNJs, they are not without discussion. I meant to say that I play FNJs wherever they are really obvious, like

pass 1♥ 1♠ 3♥
4♣

We are just going to have to disagree on what is a logical (or practical) set of rules for determining whether a call is a FNJ, but it seems very obvious to me why it can make sense to play a FNJ over a 1-level overcall but not a 2-level overcall. The second, on average, shows a much much better hand for me, as I am sure it does for most players. Similarly, my third seat openers are light enough for me to play the 2♠ bid is a FNJ, I would always open 1♠ or 2♠ with any 6421 hand that is strong enough to bid over my given auction.

Mostly I just think that having an extra way to raise is not a big deal (if you make this bid a lot, it begins to lose its effectiveness, and if you only make this bid on classical FNJ-looking hands, then it is not frequent enough), but the natural 3♣ bid has no convenient substitute.

[whereagles]

Kind of depends on the system, but both FNJ and natural (9-10 hcp, usually with residual ♦ fit, in case things get ugly) certainly are playable.

[jdonn]

Posting this is like throwing a lit match into a crowded room.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Jan 5 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

Posting this is like throwing a lit match into a crowded room.

One of your less successful similes, I think. If you throw a lit match into a normal crowded room, nothing much will happen. It will land somewhere and go out.

Anyway, I realise reading this that the optimal agreement probably depends very much on the exact vulnerability and auction. If I pass in third seat NV against V, these should all be fit bids because I am hugely unlikely to have a suitable natural call. If I pass in second seat Vul, then natural is a much more useful meaning.

And what's more, we seem to have a different idea of what we mean by 'natural'. I take it to mean "non-forcing with a long suit" A 3325 is actually closer to a FNJ to my way of thinking, to me a 'natural' 3C bid is 3217 or whatever, unsuitable for a pre-empt.

And in any case I already have slightly more complex agreements:
- If I can cue one of their suits below 2 of partner's suit, then I play 2NT as an unspecified single-suiter and immediate bids as fit
- If they have bid two different suits, then I play double as showing the fourth suit and immediate bids as fit

[TimG]

kenrexford, on Jan 5 2009, 08:02 AM, said:

P-1♠-2♦-2♠
3♣?

What would 2N instead of 3♣ show?

[kfay]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 5 2009, 09:52 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 5 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

Posting this is like throwing a lit match into a crowded room.

One of your less successful similes, I think. If you throw a lit match into a normal crowded room, nothing much will happen. It will land somewhere and go out.

Agree with Frances

[helene_t]

TimG, on Jan 5 2009, 04:45 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Jan 5 2009, 08:02 AM, said:

P-1♠-2♦-2♠
3♣?

What would 2N instead of 3♣ show?

2N could be a heart fit bid, so that we can stop in 3♦ if p doesn't get exited by my hearts.

[RichMor]

kenrexford, on Jan 5 2009, 08:02 AM, said:

P-1♠-2♦-2♠
3♣?

Jeff Rubens has a basic rule for 'undiscussed' bids:
1. It is as natural as possible
2. In a competetive auction - they made the last bid - it is non forcing.
3. In a constructive auction - we made the last bid - it is forcing.

IMO, this is a good general rule. Not optimal in every situation but reasonable and easy to remember.

So I prefer to play 3♣ as natural and non-forcing.

Treating a a new suit bid as fit showing in competetive auctions works best when it is likely that there will be more bidding. In this auction there is no strong reason to expect that either side will bid above the 3 level.

[kenrexford]

Humorously, I whipped this out and ended up declaring 3♣ with Qxx opposite AKxx. Both 3♣ and 3♦ are set one trick, so "no harm no foul." Partner usually expects FNJ's but somehow thought this was different. I could not understand the nuance, except perhaps that the FNJ here has (a little) less utility as a game-try (as opposed to a FNJ supporting a major).

[Cascade]

helene_t, on Jan 6 2009, 03:00 AM, said:

FNJ. P is on lead and since I preempt with all sorts of crap I cannot have clubs only.

Won't this be vulnerability (and perhaps scoring) dependent?

[RichMor]

kenrexford, on Jan 5 2009, 01:41 PM, said:

Humorously, I whipped this out and ended up declaring 3♣ with Qxx opposite AKxx. Both 3♣ and 3♦ are set one trick, so "no harm no foul." Partner usually expects FNJ's but somehow thought this was different. I could not understand the nuance, except perhaps that the FNJ here has (a little) less utility as a game-try (as opposed to a FNJ supporting a major).

Wow, your pard held AKxx in Clubs and didn't raise