[DrDouble]

I play mostly MP, so when my partner opens 1nt if I have a four card major I use Stayman. If after getting a 2d response and say I had five spades I would bid 2s asking my partner to raise spades with 3 or bid 2nt. This process would also apply 2 hearts and 2 2nt openings. This seems logical 2 me but is it recognized with a convention name.

[TylerE]

With five cards in a major, why aren't you transferring?

[DrDouble]

Opening NT's only shows at least 2 in each suit. If u simply transferred with 5 you may only have a 7 card fit. Not enough 4 a game contract unless the spades r very good.

[rogerclee]

DrDouble, on Jan 4 2009, 10:48 PM, said:

Opening NT's only shows at least 2 in each suit.  If u simply transferred with 5 you may only have a 7 card fit. Not enough 4 a game contract unless the spades r very good.

We're kicking off the new year with a bang.

[Elianna]

DrDouble, on Jan 4 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

Opening NT's only shows at least 2 in each suit.  If u simply transferred with 5 you may only have a 7 card fit. Not enough 4 a game contract unless the spades r very good.

After transferring (to spades, let's say, for the sake of simplicity):

Options with weak hand:
pass = "can't invite to game"

Options with invitational hand:
2NT= "I only have 5 spades. If you have a minimum and 2 spades, pass. If you have a minimum and 3+ spades, you may bid 3 spades. Otherwise, bid either 3NT or 4S depending on your hand"

3S = "I have 6 or more spades. Bid 4S if you like your hand (even if you have only 2 spades)"

Options with a game force:
3NT = "I only have 5 spades. If you have 2, pass. Otherwise you may bid 4S"

4S = Different things if one plays certain other conventions (like Texas transfers or the like). If one doesn't, it probably means "let's play 4S".

There are clearly many more bids available, and people play many more things that they could mean. I'm just trying to give a very simple structure that shows how to stay out of 5-2 fits at the 3 or 4 level, if that is one's wish.

[awm]

I would call this "inv+ stayman" or something like that.

The main issue seems to be the meaning of 2♣ followed by bidding two of a major. The options are:

Crawling Stayman (or Garbage Stayman): rebidding 2M is "to play", a weak hand with both majors.

Inv+ Stayman: rebidding two of a major is invitational with 5+ in the suit (not forcing).

There are also some who play a hybrid where rebidding 2♥ is weak with both majors but rebidding 2♠ is invitational with spades.

The original post seems to suggest that 2M is forcing one round, but I don't know anyone who plays this.

[barmar]

The GIB bots apparently start with Stayman when they're 5-4 in the majors. With game forcing values they'll use Smolen, but with invitational values they'll bid the 5-card suit on the 2 level.

I use a similar system with my regular f2f partner, but our 2-level followup is Smolen as well, bidding the 4-card suit. If you're not going to use crawling Stayman, it seems reasonable to arrange for the NT bidder to be declarer. I guess the benefit of the natural system is that when you have 5 ♥ and opener has a minimum and 3 ♥ you can play in 2♥ rather than being forced up to 3♥.

[blackshoe]

Hm. Barmar, what does 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠ show in your methods?

[DrDouble]

I have talked 2 some1 experienced at my Club and it is consistent with what Elianna says. I does seem 2 b the most intuitive system Thanks all 4 ur input.

[Zelandakh]

DrDoubles approach is part of BBO Standard, based on SAYC! In that 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ shows an invitational hand with 5-5 majors. To suggest that all hands with a 5-card major should use a transfer is wrong - it just depends on which NT structure you are using.

As for the OP's question, I would suggest the convention name is 'standard Stayman', as, IMHO, this is the most common approach being used at club level in many (most?) countries.

[barmar]

blackshoe, on Jan 5 2009, 05:37 PM, said:

Hm. Barmar, what does 1NT-2♦-2♥-2♠ show in your methods?

That's how we transfer to 3♣.

[helene_t]

Zelandakh, on Jan 7 2009, 12:33 PM, said:

As for the OP's question, I would suggest the convention name is 'standard Stayman', as, IMHO, this is the most common approach being used at club level in many (most?) countries.

I'd rather describe what weak options it includes (both majors? 3-suited short in clubs? both majors but not ♠>♥? Invitational without 4cM?). "Standard" is a an annoying word, at least I get annoyed when hearing it. Has a connotation of "agreements different from mine are weird".

[blackshoe]

Personally, I think that the way most people play 2♣ Stayman is best described as "relay, asking for further description, says nothing about responder's hand", with perhaps two caveats: (1) that opener's description should emphasize his major suit holding, and (2) that if there is specific agreement about hand types which are included (or excluded) and those hand types might not be expected, that should be disclosed in explaining 2♣. In most cases, though, I think that responder's second bid is likely to say something about what hand types he holds, and disclosure at the time of that bid should be sufficient.

[Zelandakh]

helene_t, on Jan 7 2009, 04:26 PM, said:

"Standard" is a an annoying word, at least I get annoyed when hearing it. Has a connotation of "agreements different from mine are weird".

Lest you think this of me, my preference is for a version of puppet Stayman or, where that is inappropriate, for 1N - 2♣ - 2♦ 2♥ to be garbage Stayman (both majors or ♥ + minor). I wrote only of my belief as to the closest to a standard that I see. I would not expect any special alert (and in most countries no alert at all) of this form of the convention.