[Cascade]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 Pass  Pass  1♥    Dbl
 Pass  1♠    2♣    ?

[Fluffy]

Not really, I'd bid 3♥ willing to reopen if partner bid game.

[P_Marlowe]

4S.

And the answer is: Yes 4S is enough.
4S may make, or not.

To answer those question just looking
at the 40HCP abacus is usually more
than sufficent.
The abacus tells you, that p is dead.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gnasher]

For slam we'd need something like Qxxx(x) xx Kxx(x) xxx, but that seems both unlikely and impossible to divine. I don't wish to involve partner in any decision about dealing with further competition either, so if I were going to play in spades I'd just bid game.

I wonder, though, if we should consider 3NT. It's unlikely that LHO will lead a diamond, and if he does it's unlikely that RHO has more than two - he bid 2♣ rather than doubling 1♠. 3NT avoids the risk of a heart ruff, or simply of four losers facing xxxx xx 10xxx xxx. I think I've talked myself into 3NT.

[1eyedjack]

I can picture hands that make slam.
I can picture hands that cannot make 5S (or at least are at risk of going down in 5S with no play for 6).
So it seems like a hand for making a slam try without committing beyond 4S. And fortunately there seems to be a wealth of bidding space below 4S available for that purpose.
I am not committing beyond 4S without some encouragement, but I agree that partner is seldom going to appreciate that he is worth encouraging even when it is appropriate.

[Cascade]

1eyedjack, on Jan 4 2009, 09:32 AM, said:

And fortunately there seems to be a wealth of bidding space below 4S available for that purpose.
I am not committing beyond 4S without some encouragement, but I agree that partner is seldom going to appreciate that he is worth encouraging even when it is appropriate.

If partner has some values then we might get a jump if we make some forcing bid.

Any jump will show values that are almost certainly useful and therefore make the five-level safe.

The problem is that the obvious forcing bid (2♥) tends to deny a spade fit. So one question is "Is it safe to bid 2♥ and then correct to spades later?" or will partner think we only have three-card support and possibly look elsewhere?

[1eyedjack]

There are so many forcing bids available below 4S that you feel that with agreement one of those sequences at least should be reserved for a powerhouse fit. Whether that should be 2H then Spades, or ....

[Cascade]

1eyedjack, on Jan 4 2009, 10:41 AM, said:

There are so many forcing bids available below 4S that you feel that with agreement one of those sequences at least should be reserved for a powerhouse fit. Whether that should be 2H then Spades, or ....

I am not so sure how many "many" forcing bids means. Partner has not shown any values.

I would normally play:

X = extra values but not four spades. It probably suggests some clubs.

2♦ = around 16+ with five or more diamonds

2♥ = artificial force around 19+ (not usually spades)

2♠ = most hands with four spades

2NT = 19-21 or so approximately balanced

3♣ = my general agreement is that double and bid is natural even if the opponents have bid the suit. Depending on my opponent this might not be sensible especially if 2♣ suggests a five-card suit.

3♦ = better than 2♦ but not forcing

3♥ = force but i dont have a specific agreement

3♠ = invitational

3NT = to play

4♣/♦ - i haven't discussed these perhaps they should show a forcing raise. Partner might interpret them and 3♥ as splinters

4♥ = Splinter (maybe a void)

4♠ = to play

[Winstonm]

I think it is plenty. Although blessed with HCPs, the hand also has 5 losers and RHO (bless him) has told you nothing is breaking well.

Opposite xxxx. Axx, Qxx, Jxx you may have a struggle making 4S.

[whereagles]

A practical 4♠ should do it.

[Fluffy]

Cascade, on Jan 3 2009, 09:02 PM, said:

The problem is that the obvious forcing bid (2♥) tends to deny a spade fit.  So one question is "Is it safe to bid 2♥ and then correct to spades later?" or will partner think we only have three-card support and possibly look elsewhere?

I would think that double shows strong balanced hands and 2♥ shows 3+ spades, maybe 3♣ does the trick?

[trevahound]

Likely I'm missing something obvious, but shouldn't I have a natural way to show hearts available here? RHO bid 1♥ w vs r in third seat; where I come from, I give them a license to steal if I have no way to show hearts ever on this auction.

I'd think x then 2♥ was hearts, and clubs my "free" cue bid in support of spades.

Forgive me if I'm nuts.

Brian,
Seattle

[Viren169]

2H followed by 4S...

It is unlikley but sometimes pd has the right cards.

[Fluffy]

trevahound, on Jan 4 2009, 06:54 AM, said:

Forgive me if I'm nuts.

you are forgiven Brian .

Seriously, when you have hearts the normal aproach is to pass 1♥ and then bid hearts natrally if you really believe its a pshyche (I can recall playing on a 7-0 fit at th 5 level with trumps spliting 5-1).

[trevahound]

If you pass with a 23 ct over RHO's third seat favorable "opener", I suspect you won't be able to bid ♥'s naturally later, as I suspect there won't be a later. +250 or so is unlikely to be a good score.


I am not a frequent psycher at all; however, if I pick up a hand with a queen or so in third chair at these colors after two passes, I'm only passing if my opps are newer or inexperienced. The hands RHO is most likely to be fooling around on are precisely the hands where I have a rock crusher -- where it's too dangerous to pass first.

My two cents.

Brian,
Seattle

[cherdano]

trevahound, on Jan 4 2009, 12:16 PM, said:

If you pass with a 23 ct over RHO's third seat favorable "opener", I suspect you won't be able to bid ♥'s naturally later, as I suspect there won't be a later. +250 or so is unlikely to be a good score.


I am not a frequent psycher at all; however, if I pick up a hand with a queen or so in third chair at these colors after two passes, I'm only passing if my opps are newer or inexperienced. The hands RHO is most likely to be fooling around on are precisely the hands where I have a rock crusher -- where it's too dangerous to pass first.

My two cents.

Brian,
Seattle

If you are so worried about the psych, it is maybe better to play 3♥ and 4♥ as natural. Adding yet another hand to the overloaded double doesn't seem such a great idea, and after double you would have to jump anyway, so you are not losing any space. (I assume we agree that we still need (1H) X (P) 1S (P) 2H as a cuebid, not natural.)

[Cascade]

trevahound, on Jan 5 2009, 07:16 AM, said:

If you pass with a 23 ct over RHO's third seat favorable "opener", I suspect you won't be able to bid ♥'s naturally later, as I suspect there won't be a later. +250 or so is unlikely to be a good score.


I am not a frequent psycher at all; however, if I pick up a hand with a queen or so in third chair at these colors after two passes, I'm only passing if my opps are newer or inexperienced. The hands RHO is most likely to be fooling around on are precisely the hands where I have a rock crusher -- where it's too dangerous to pass first.

My two cents.

Brian,
Seattle

I doubt this is a legal agreement in most jurisdictions if you are opening at the one-level.

[skjaeran]

Cascade, on Jan 4 2009, 08:41 PM, said:

trevahound, on Jan 5 2009, 07:16 AM, said:

If you pass with a 23 ct over RHO's third seat favorable "opener", I suspect you won't be able to bid ♥'s naturally later, as I suspect there won't be a later. +250 or so is unlikely to be a good score.


I am not a frequent psycher at all; however, if I pick up a hand with a queen or so in third chair at these colors after two passes, I'm only passing if my opps are newer or inexperienced. The hands RHO is most likely to be fooling around on are precisely the hands where I have a rock crusher -- where it's too dangerous to pass first.

My two cents.

Brian,
Seattle

I doubt this is a legal agreement in most jurisdictions if you are opening at the one-level.

That's true. And it's a psyche only the first time you do this in a partnership.

[Cascade]

skaeran, on Jan 5 2009, 09:57 AM, said:

Cascade, on Jan 4 2009, 08:41 PM, said:

trevahound, on Jan 5 2009, 07:16 AM, said:

If you pass with a 23 ct over RHO's third seat favorable "opener", I suspect you won't be able to bid ♥'s naturally later, as I suspect there won't be a later. +250 or so is unlikely to be a good score.


I am not a frequent psycher at all; however, if I pick up a hand with a queen or so in third chair at these colors after two passes, I'm only passing if my opps are newer or inexperienced. The hands RHO is most likely to be fooling around on are precisely the hands where I have a rock crusher -- where it's too dangerous to pass first.

My two cents.

Brian,
Seattle

I doubt this is a legal agreement in most jurisdictions if you are opening at the one-level.

That's true. And it's a psyche only the first time you do this in a partnership.

I am not sure i fully agree with one only psyche but if you do it every time or nearly every time that you have that hand then it is definitely an agreement and not a psyche (departure from agreements).

[trevahound]

Goodness, it's bridge. How many times per year do you pick up a 2-3 pt hand in third seat at favorable after two passes? I play a lot of bridge, and for me it's 1-3 per year, and 1-2 of those is vs someone I wouldn't psyche against (a newer player, or a C player). You're allowed to play bridge at the table. Partner doesn't field your bid, and thus there is no undisclosed agreement or understanding. The laws of bridge specifically permit psyching. In the circumstances given above, if a psyche isn't at least in your mind as a possibility with this hand, I don't know what to say. It's in mine.

Even the MSC considers their being psyched against, and this is a classic circumstance. To give another example, if you don't have any way to play in a major suit game after your side opens 1nt and gets a 2♦ (both majors) overcall, you're being stolen from, as folks factually do make this bid with a crappy four card major and steal from your side. There are other examples. I would think in the example given the 2♣ bid gives you a "free" cue bid to imply spade values, with no useful loss of bidding space, leaving you 2♥ as natural. One could certainly have the other agreement. Absent the 2♣ call, you're likely going to have a harder time of it. I wouldn't want to bet big money on opener's two round suit lengths, though, 5/5 being a better bet than 1/7, but not by enough to risk much.

Of course, if my hand were more routine, or in other circumstances, I would be less suspicious.

I find it a little off-putting that the assumption is one has an implicit agreement when one makes what at least some (if not the commenters above) might consider a practical bridge bid.

The fact that my fully disclosed third chair openings already stretch from 8hcpts to a 2♣ opener already make them so wide-ranging as to be problematic for our side -- I don't want partner ever thinking I'm opening a busted 2 count.

Finally, we routinely open 4cM with 8+ hcpts in 3rd chair, which the acbl permits without comment; over these openings, it can be your hand in our M, and it pays to have a way to show that suit.

Cheers to all,

Brian,
Seattle