[shevek]

When, if ever, should players make the switch to reverse signals?
The theoretical gains are minor, perhaps even non-existent, but reverse (upside-down) signals are easier to play. You can usually signal honestly without the risk of your pip casting a trick.

Forget the theory. They might be easier to teach. If we teach leads via "a low card led shows an honour on the suit, a high pip led denies an honour" then reverse signalling on partner's lead or discarding follows this guidline.
On the other hand, they will have to adjust to LEAD high from a doubleton but SIGNAL low to get a ruff.

Which brings up the other issue.
Who teaches or plays reverse attitude but normal count? This seems tough to me, though it is 100% consistent with our leading advice to improving players. The problem comes when when it's not clear whether the signal required is attitude or count, plus of course their are issues with holdings like J-x.

[matmat]

shevek, on Jan 1 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

The theoretical gains are minor, perhaps even non-existent, but reverse (upside-down) signals are easier to play. You can usually signal honestly without the risk of your pip casting a trick.

i'm confused.

[shevek]

matmat, on Jan 1 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

shevek, on Jan 1 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

The theoretical gains are minor, perhaps even non-existent, but reverse (upside-down) signals are easier to play. You can usually signal honestly without the risk of your pip casting a trick.

i'm confused.

If you are giving honest count with
♦ J-2 & ♦ J-8-2
you need to consider throwing the jack playing natural count but not playing reverse, when you can nearly always be honest, if you wish.

Likewise, encouraging and discouraging with
♠ K-Q-T-5 & ♠ J-8-6-5 could occasionally be costly playing "natural" but not playing reverse.

[matmat]

shevek, on Jan 1 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

matmat, on Jan 1 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

shevek, on Jan 1 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

The theoretical gains are minor, perhaps even non-existent, but reverse (upside-down) signals are easier to play. You can usually signal honestly without the risk of your pip casting a trick.

i'm confused.

If you are giving honest count with
♦ J-2 & ♦ J-8-2
you need to consider throwing the jack playing natural count but not playing reverse, when you can nearly always be honest, if you wish.

Likewise, encouraging and discouraging with
♠ K-Q-T-5 & ♠ J-8-6-5 could occasionally be costly playing "natural" but not playing reverse.

what i don't understand is how you can say that right after claiming that the theoretical gains are minor.

[helene_t]

I was brought up with reverse attitude and standard count. It is standard in Norway btw.

[shevek]

matmat, on Jan 1 2009, 10:07 PM, said:

shevek, on Jan 1 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

matmat, on Jan 1 2009, 09:12 PM, said:

shevek, on Jan 1 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

The theoretical gains are minor, perhaps even non-existent, but reverse (upside-down) signals are easier to play. You can usually signal honestly without the risk of your pip casting a trick.

i'm confused.

If you are giving honest count with
♦ J-2 & ♦ J-8-2
you need to consider throwing the jack playing natural count but not playing reverse, when you can nearly always be honest, if you wish.

Likewise, encouraging and discouraging with
♠ K-Q-T-5 & ♠ J-8-6-5 could occasionally be costly playing "natural" but not playing reverse.

what i don't understand is how you can say that right after claiming that the theoretical gains are minor.

Good players cope well with the ambiguity & many top players stick with natural signals. They can think "Partner showed three but she couldn't very well play J from J-x". Or "The 7 looks high but she would have played 9 from K-9-7 therefore 9-8-7 is likely". etc. Plus they know when not to give count.

Also there are times when reverse signals block the suit. Dummy wins a stiff ace and you have 10-8-2. Discouraging with the 8, then leading back the 2 (high-low to discourage) is not the way to go.

The subtle issues that even the balance don't mean much in most games.

[FrancesHinden]

In one partnership I play standard signals and discards, and always have done.

Among good English players we are in a minority, the most popular method is reverse attitude and standard count, which is probably the closest to 'expert standard' over here, but by no means universal. That's what I play in my other partnerships.

I've played a very large number of boards with both methods, and although I can see there may be a theoretical advantage for reverse over standard, I've get to find it cost anything in practice (other than random costs when you don't have a suitable card to signal with, which are 50/50 for each method).

[1eyedjack]

If you want to go for complicated, the "Scanian" method sought to codify situations when it was identifiably superior to play standard (high to encourage) contrasted with other situations where it was superior to play low to encourage ("reverse"), and thereby (supposedly) claim the best of both worlds. There is probably a more complete definition but a brief outline is contained here:

http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/SGlossa...nseSummary.html
(you have to scroll down the aphabetical list)

[Gerardo]

shevek, on Jan 1 2009, 11:05 PM, said:

On the other hand, they will have to adjust to LEAD high from a doubleton but SIGNAL low to get a ruff.

Which brings up the other issue.
Who teaches or plays reverse attitude but normal count? This seems tough to me, though it is 100% consistent with our leading advice to improving players. The problem comes when when it's not clear whether the signal required is attitude or count, plus of course their are issues with holdings like J-x.

I got used and like to lead the polish way (2nd and 4th, except from honor doubleton; no rusinow [might be non standard}), goes very well with reverse signals, you lead the same card you signal with.

Usually don't show count when playing standard signals with Hx, unless 109 (H shows singleton or touching card below; sometimes touching card up).

[maggieb]

Reverse attitude and standard count is fine, but I would play upside down count at trick one if you're going to do this.

[barmar]

The reason why attitude and count are usually done the same way (either both standard or both reverse) is because your attitude with a doubleton is usually correlated with your count, at least in trump contracts. If you have a doubleton you usually want partner to continue so you can get a ruff. Whatever you play, whether he interprets it as count or attitude he'll be right.

[y66]

I'm concluding from reading this thread that it really doesn't matter which I play - standard or upside down or some variation.

That's very helpful information. I greatly appreciate it.

[vuroth]

My suspicion is that they score as follows:

UDCA: 98-100
Standard: 96-99
Nothing: 0

[Tola18]

vuroth, on Jan 5 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

My suspicion is that they score as follows:

UDCA:  98-100
Standard:  96-99
Nothing:  0

Oh, nay.

No markings (=signals) isnt as bad as 0, although it IS very nice with good markings. It is a very nice experience playing with a well schooled partner.
Playing without markings you do develop a sort of sensivity and manage reasonable anyway. You have, if not nothing else, always a chance to guess luckily.

Playing with a lower intermediare or beginner it may even be better to play without markings. As obeying wrong "markings" is almost always costly.
Lower intermediares tends to forget or get confused:
Sometimes they do mark, sometimes they dont.
They arent either paying attention to played cards.

Say, playing UDCA; first discard, I play small heart = HEARTS please!
Later on I discard a spade and partner takes the trick. He looks twice at my spade (=my latest card) - and returns - yes, a spade....


Thus. A lower intermediare must train somewhere and make hishers amount of mistakes. Like anybody else! But this training should be as much to pay attention to the cards, as learning to mark attitude or count.
Important tip: Playing with intermediare or lower (or being intermediare/lower), use the markings heshe is used to or at least, knows well.

[Tola18]

Talking about teaching reversed signals.

I think it is a good point IF you teach reversed signals, to teach BOTH attitude and count reversed. Ie UDCA full., or as we say in Sweden: SML.


I suspect it is otherwise confunding for the beginner; one is reversed and one is normal. Which is which?? Thus it may be better to switch everything, as it really doesnt matter and UDCA full works just fine.

Edit: Barmar´s observation about the doubletons is very good - and points here too.



Furthermore, I think it it good to teach the Lavinthal signal early. Perhaps even before teaching the attitude signal. Count-signal last of the three.

With Lavinthal Im talking about Lavinthal orginale, ie in the carding, NOT in the discards.

About discards:
Playing UDCA-attitude signals Udca-discarding works just fine, better then standard discarding playing standard attitude signals. Thus playing UDCA it is NOT any advantage playing lav in discards. But playing standard carding it is perhaps good to play lavinthal discards... Although Im happy playing standard discards when playing standard carding. Works OK and easy to remember.
Such is my firmly belief.



Memory helps playing UDCA:
Attitude:
small = positive: greedy tight: I have, and dont want to throw my riches.
big = negative: I dont care here, worthless for me...
Count:
small= even: Im level, going in pairs
big = odd: sticks out, uneven

[Rossoneri]

I can never seem to play reverse count, however reverse attitude std count works fine for me.