[Flame]

If you want to see why, try to constract a system when you have to open 1nt with the hand you usually open 1sp , just one bid higher, now lets see you bid, you wont get even close. i was using 1nt 2c 2d and 2h to show hands with 5 hearts + 4 om or 6h, and still couldnt manage to show what i could easily show with a simple 1sp.

[mishovnbg]

Ask Luis, he already play version of MOSCITO and use 1NT for ♠ with bal hands . By WBF rules for normal tourney you can't use 1NT to show unbalanced hand...
Misho

[hrothgar]

Flame, on Apr 25 2004, 02:55 PM, said:

If you want to see why, try to constract a system when you have to open 1nt with the hand you usually open 1sp , just one bid higher, now lets see you bid, you wont get even close. i was using 1nt 2c 2d and 2h to show hands with 5 hearts + 4 om or 6h, and still couldnt manage to show what i could easily show with a simple 1sp.

Hmmm. with all due respect, you really might want to go back to the drawing board. For the moment, let make things simple and only consider non-competitive auctions...

If we're using a simple relay system, the amount of information that can be encoded into a sequence of bids is governed by the Fibonacci sequence. In turn, this means that

Each bid should show approximately 1.618034 times as many hand types as the previous bid.

The meaning of any bid can be swapped with the next two bids.

As an example, lets consider the following Fibonacci sequence

1 = 1.618034^0
1.618034 = 1.618034^1
2.618034 = 1.618034^2
4.236068 = 1.618034^3

Note that 2.618034 = 1 + 1.618034
In a similar fashion, 4.236068 = 1.618034 + 2.618034

Or, to return to your example, it should be possible to encode all of the hand types shown by a 1S opening into the 1NT and 2C openings.

Taking a VERY basic example from Symmetric Relay

Suppose that I am using a 2C bid to show any two suited hand with both minors.
If I wanted to, I could INSTEAD

Use the 2D opening to show 5+ Diamonds and 4+ Clubs and
Use the 2H opening to show 5+ Clubs and precisely 4 Diamonds

Its entirely possible that you have overloaded your original 1S opening to such an extent that you can't disentangle the hand types. However, in this case, you should still be able to overload 1NT and 2C...

[Flame]

hrothgar, on Apr 25 2004, 08:01 AM, said:

Hmmm. with all due respect, you really might want to go back to the drawing board. For the moment, let make things simple and only consider non-competitive auctions...

If we're using a simple relay system, the amount of information that can be encoded into a sequence of bids is governed by the Fibonacci sequence. In turn, this means that

Each bid should show approximately 1.618034 times as many hand types as the previous bid.

The meaning of any bid can be swapped with the next two bids.

As an example, lets consider the following Fibonacci sequence

1 = 1.618034^0
1.618034 = 1.618034^1
2.618034 = 1.618034^2
4.236068 = 1.618034^3

Note that 2.618034 = 1 + 1.618034
In a similar fashion, 4.236068 = 1.618034 + 2.618034

Or, to return to your example, it should be possible to encode all of the hand types shown by a 1S opening into the 1NT and 2C openings.

Taking a VERY basic example from Symmetric Relay

Suppose that I am using a 2C bid to show any two suited hand with both minors.
If I wanted to, I could INSTEAD

Use the 2D opening to show 5+ Diamonds and 4+ Clubs and
Use the 2H opening to show 5+ Clubs and precisely 4 Diamonds

Its entirely possible that you have overloaded your original 1S opening to such an extent that you can't disentangle the hand types. However, in this case, you should still be able to overload 1NT and 2C...

with all due respect, if you read carfully you might understand why fibonachi rule will not work here.

[hrothgar]

Flame, on Apr 25 2004, 06:49 PM, said:

with all due respect, if you read carfully you might understand why fibonachi rule will not work here.

As I read your original post, you seem to be making the following claim:

You want to be able to show hands with

5+ Hearts and 4om OR
6+ Hearts

You have tried to develop structure to show these hand types using the bids:
1NT, 2C, 2D, and 2H

You have been able to multiplex all of these bids into a 1S opening

I'm having trouble reconciling the two comments:

-------------------
BTW, for whats its worth

2C = 5+ Hearts and (4+ Clubs or 4 Diamonds)
2D = Single suited hands with Hearts
2S = 5+ Hearts and 5+ Diamonds

After 2D, 2H = relay and then

2S = High shortage or (2=6=2=3 / 2=6=3=2) shape
2N = Middle shortage
3C = 7=2=2=2 shape
3D = 3=6=3=1 shape
3H = 3=7=2=1 or 2=7=3=1 shape
3S = 3=7=3=0 shape

----

After 2C, 2D = Relay and then

2H = 5+ Hearts and 4 Diamonds
2S = 5+ Hearts and 5+ Clubs
2N = 5+ hearts and 4 Clubs, High Shortage
3C = 2=5=2=4 shape
3D = 3=5=1=4 shape
3H = 2=6=1=4 shape
3S = 3=6=0=4 shape

--------

After 2S, 2N = Relay and then

3C = High shortage
3D = 1=5=1=6 / 1=6=1=5 shape
3H = 2=5=1=5 shape
3S = 3=5=0=5 shape
3N = 2=5=0=6 shape
4C = 2=6=0=5 shape

[Flame]

What you missed from my original post is it's title, i didnt choose this title for nothing. The title says that the pass is the most importent bid, the problem with your fibo claim is that its true only when we are talking about one way information, but when partner can pass 1sp it opens a two way information which is way supirior, also i have made another way info after 1sp beside the pass.
about your example , maybe your used to playing moscito with strong 1c which limits your bids, but i ments 1sp to be a natural 1sp something like 11-21 (Actually in my system it began with 7 not 11 ), now im sure you will noticed you were going way too high on some hands, maybe with most.

[Free]

I don't get the meaning of this post. The title says "pass is the most important bid", but there's an explanation which doesn't have much to do with it imo. Where/when/... (I guess you answered the "why") do you think pass is most important?? Sorry, really don't get it, I must be stupid...

Btw, I think one-way information is a lot better, certainly when that hand becomes dummy! Ofcourse, you need more accuracy before you can play a system like that. Two way info usually doesn't show EXACT shape and EXACT top honours (I said usually, I know there are exceptions), and one of the hands plays where there's some info known for opps. If you have one-way info, you have to rightside the contract to get that advantage over two-way info (most of the time does, relay structure is designed for that), BUT there's always 1 person who knows 26 cards, and exact top honours,... He can decide better than anyone else what to play imo.

[Flame]

Free, on Apr 25 2004, 11:48 AM, said:

I don't get the meaning of this post. The title says "pass is the most important bid", but there's an explanation which doesn't have much to do with it imo. Where/when/... (I guess you answered the "why") do you think pass is most important?? Sorry, really don't get it, I must be stupid...

Btw, I think one-way information is a lot better, certainly when that hand becomes dummy! Ofcourse, you need more accuracy before you can play a system like that. Two way info usually doesn't show EXACT shape and EXACT top honours (I said usually, I know there are exceptions), and one of the hands plays where there's some info known for opps. If you have one-way info, you have to rightside the contract to get that advantage over two-way info (most of the time does, relay structure is designed for that), BUT there's always 1 person who knows 26 cards, and exact top honours,... He can decide better than anyone else what to play imo.

Hi Free
one way relay are nice but they can be proved to be inferiour to 2 way, in the sense on amount of information transmited, on the other hand, simple relay might be easier, and have the advantage of hiding one hand from opponents (hopefully declerer's hand)
Sometimes you have no problem deleverion all the info with the simple way, but other times you need to delever too much for that.
Having an opening that can be pass helps alot, when partner pass 1sp with all 0-5 hcp, we can continue as its a simple relay but we already transmited alot of information that is very importent to the bidding.
just think of partner with 0 hcp, i wouldnt want to be in the 3 level even with 17 hcp, this will be easy when he will pass 1sp, but will not be hard if he cant pass it (like when i bid an artificual 1nt instead)
, use this pass, for example gib's moscito if i remember corectly pass an artificual hands opening with very weak. same with many other systems like MIDMAC, or NTC , or natural systems.