[awm]

♠A
♥QJ8x
♦KJxx
♣J8xx

Partner opens 2NT, 20-21. You're playing standard methods, so you start with regular stayman and hear a 3♠ reply. Now what? Is this hand worth forcing to slam? Do you want to look for a possible minor suit slam (scoring is IMPs by the way), and if so how will you do this without distorting your shape?

Does anyone have particular methods for strong 4441 hands over a natural 2NT (yes I know these hands are easier to bid if you play a strong ♣, that is not the point)?

[whereagles]

In Klinger's book "5 card major Stayman", he describes a method to show 4441s after 2NT, which he calls something like 'Neil 3♣'.

Not using that, and having bid 3♣, I'll now follow up with 4♦ and 6♣. If that could confuse pard, I'll just bid 6NT.

[benlessard]

2 easy & essentials slam tolls imo are Baron responses over a quantitative 4Nt.

5C = 4C
5D=4D
5Nt i have a 6 card minor or a solid suit please bid 6C.
6?=5 card suits.

The 2nd is that 5Nt is pick a slam (a slam tools of equal importantce to 3Nt non/serious). Ive seen many good pairs lose imps for just because they werent able to find a side fit (for me its simply unnaceptable).

With your hand i would just bid 4Nt.

[mike777]

2nt=3c
3s=?(I would bid 4nt now)

4nt=quantitative
4h=rkc for spades.

[jillybean]

.delete

[mikeh]

I use specialized methods. Which I have to review everytime I play.. I play 2 different methods, with different partners.. personally, I find 2N structures to be the most difficult to remember for some reason.

But if not, then I would hope that we have the agreement that 4N, over 3♠, is natural and quantitative... partner can and should, imo, bid a 4 card minor along the way if accepting the invite. One can use 4♥ as a slam try in spades... so one loses keycard (unless one plays that 4♥ is a puppet to 4♠ and then responder can keycard or cue.. but I don't like that treatment because I like opener to be able to indicate slam suitability or not by bidding/cue-bidding/keycarding over 4♥)

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Dec 31 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

But if not, then I would hope that we have the agreement that 4N, over 3♠, is natural and quantitative... partner can and should, imo, bid a 4 card minor along the way if accepting the invite.

I've posted about auctions like this before, since it's one I've spent a lot of time on. If partner bids a minor over 4NT I really believe it should be five cards. 5NT over 4NT can be an invitation to responder to bid a four card minor.

[Fluffy]

Quacky missfitting hand with a bare ace, I think we better settle for 3NT.

I don't have much methods after stayman, I don't even play 4NT as quatitative (partner's strenght is well defined, very often he will make a blind decision) but ace asking.

Ths is one of the examples why I don't undertand why people strech to open 2NT with 19 balanced with a 5 card suit, 2NT preempts yourself and IMO is the worst opening avaible on natural systems.

[whereagles]

Agree that 2NT is a self-preemtive opener. But, given pard usually has squat, that doesn't cause much trouble. Not the case here, obviously.

[cherdano]

jdonn, on Dec 31 2008, 04:21 PM, said:

mikeh, on Dec 31 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

But if not, then I would hope that we have the agreement that 4N, over 3♠, is natural and quantitative... partner can and should, imo, bid a 4 card minor along the way if accepting the invite.

I've posted about auctions like this before, since it's one I've spent a lot of time on. If partner bids a minor over 4NT I really believe it should be five cards. 5NT over 4NT can be an invitation to responder to bid a four card minor.

With 42(52)? Can't these jump to 6m? Or would that show s.th. like KQJTx for you?
Showing a 4-card suit at the 5-level has the advantage that we can stop in 5N when there is no fit.

[jdonn]

cherdano, on Dec 31 2008, 07:12 PM, said:

jdonn, on Dec 31 2008, 04:21 PM, said:

mikeh, on Dec 31 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

But if not, then I would hope that we have the agreement that 4N, over 3♠, is natural and quantitative... partner can and should, imo, bid a 4 card minor along the way if accepting the invite.

I've posted about auctions like this before, since it's one I've spent a lot of time on. If partner bids a minor over 4NT I really believe it should be five cards. 5NT over 4NT can be an invitation to responder to bid a four card minor.

With 42(52)? Can't these jump to 6m? Or would that show s.th. like KQJTx for you?
Showing a 4-card suit at the 5-level has the advantage that we can stop in 5N when there is no fit.

Yeah 6 would show a good suit, I don't think it's right with KJxxx.

The second thing you said is true whether 5m shows a 4 or 5 card suit. However with a minimum and a 4 card suit, I would rather just pass 4NT than 5NT. With a minimum and a 5 card suit, you want to be in slam if partner has a fit but not otherwise (especially a mediocre suit like above.)

[gnasher]

I prefer to play 1NT-3♣; 3♠-4♦ as specifically 4 cards (4M-5m hands go via 2NT-3♠). With that agreement, whereagles's suggestion of 4♦ followed by 6♣ seems sensible.

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on Jan 1 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

I prefer to play 1NT-3♣; 3♠-4♦ as specifically 4 cards (4M-5m hands go via 2NT-3♠). With that agreement, whereagles's suggestion of 4♦ followed by 6♣ seems sensible.

Yes, I also like to bid my shape out in whatever way makes systemic sense. So with a long minor I 'bid' the minor in some artificial way, then bid the major next.

[awm]

I tried 4NT and partner passed. At the other table they bid 6NT. Partner's hand:

♠KQxx
♥ATx
♦Qx
♣AKQx

Note that the heart ten is a huge card. Without this card, 6NT has no real play (okay some quite poor squeeze chances). Bidding 6♣ is worse on the real hand, better if opener lacks the heart ten, but in general not a great slam.

Of course, the heart king was onside and 6NT rolled home.

[mike777]

awm, on Jan 1 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

I tried 4NT and partner passed. At the other table they bid 6NT. Partner's hand:

♠KQxx
♥ATx
♦Qx
♣AKQx

Note that the heart ten is a huge card. Without this card, 6NT has no real play (okay some quite poor squeeze chances). Bidding 6♣ is worse on the real hand, better if opener lacks the heart ten, but in general not a great slam.

Of course, the heart king was onside and 6NT rolled home.

accept all invites with a ten in a short suit?

[Hanoi5]

Baron over 2NT works fine here I think.