[qwery_hi]

Edit - I got the hand wrong. S has the Jack of spades, not the king.

1. Would the answer change if S had the King?
2. Would the answer change if S passed initially?

Scoring: IMP


W N E S

-- -- -- 1♣
1♥ 1♠ P 2♠
P 4♠ 5♦ ?

---

I face these decisions quite often, and don't know what are the
factors to consider while choosing between

1. Pass

2. Double

3. 5X

I know 'the 5 level belongs to the opponents', can you help me understand when if ever it is correct to bid on?

Thanks.

PS I don't know if this belongs in the some other forum

PS2. Is there an easier way to indent the auction while entering it using 'one hand'?

This post has been edited by qwery_hi: 2008-December-29, 07:58

[vuroth]

Forcing pass time?

[skjaeran]

With a minimum 9-loser hand, a forcing pass is an overbid IMO, even with no vasted values. I'm a doubler.

[qwery_hi]

Partner had

♠K98764 ♥K832 ♦Q ♣Q3

I bid 5 spades, and was doubled for -1.

[Codo]

You have no shortness, some defence and surely not enough for a forcing pass.
I would try X too.

[jdonn]

I would definitely double. I am certainly not interested in partner bidding any more.

[qwery_hi]

Thanks for your replies. Bidding on at the 5 level with flat hands is one bad habit I have to unlearn. After 3 years of playing, I still haven't learnt to stop hoping for miracle fits/miracle hands.

[neilkaz]

Codo, on Dec 29 2008, 03:42 PM, said:

You have no shortness, some defence and surely not enough for a forcing pass.
I would try X too.

Same here and no way would I bid 5♠ with your flat hand. Clear X here for me, not interested in a forcing pass with this minimal offence.

EDIT: This is B/I so I don't want too sound harsh. One good thing to strive to avoid is bidding the same values twice. In this case it is the same minimal values. You previously told your PD about your ♠ support and your minimum with your raise to 2♠.

While PD will usually pass 5(red)x, he may bid 5♠ with extreme offence, likely based on distibution.

[foo]

A Rule of Thumb:

X when your hand says defend or when the thought of bidding on makes you feel sick to your stomach.

Bid when you have no defense or when the thought of passing makes you feel sick to your stomach.

Pass when you aren't sure whether you want to Play or Defend. Or when you aren't which of X or bid would make you feel more sick.

[jillybean]

foo, on Dec 30 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Pass when you aren't sure whether you want to Play or Defend. Or when you aren't which of X or bid would make you feel more sick.

And don’t be at all surprised if your beginner/intermediate/expert partner passes your forcing pass.

[foo]

jillybean2, on Dec 30 2008, 02:20 AM, said:

foo, on Dec 30 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Pass when you aren't sure whether you want to Play or Defend.  Or when you aren't which of X or bid would make you feel more sick. 

And don’t be at all surprised if your beginner/intermediate/expert partner passes your forcing pass.

...but since you passed because you were unsure what to do, if they use the same logic it will usually work out reasonably well.

[jdonn]

foo, on Dec 30 2008, 02:34 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Dec 30 2008, 02:20 AM, said:

foo, on Dec 30 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Pass when you aren't sure whether you want to Play or Defend.  Or when you aren't which of X or bid would make you feel more sick. 

And don’t be at all surprised if your beginner/intermediate/expert partner passes your forcing pass.

...but since you passed because you were unsure what to do, if they use the same logic it will usually work out reasonably well.

Maybe you are unsure what to do because you think you will make if you bid on and you think they will be down several if you double. Being unsure doesn't mean you dislike both actions, you could like both. It will not work out reasonably well if partner starts passing your forcing passes.

[cherdano]

You are 4333 and already have shown your support. In that situation, you should NEVER bid on.

[foo]

jdonn, on Dec 30 2008, 03:49 AM, said:

foo, on Dec 30 2008, 02:34 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Dec 30 2008, 02:20 AM, said:

foo, on Dec 30 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

Pass when you aren't sure whether you want to Play or Defend.  Or when you aren't which of X or bid would make you feel more sick. 

And don’t be at all surprised if your beginner/intermediate/expert partner passes your forcing pass.

...but since you passed because you were unsure what to do, if they use the same logic it will usually work out reasonably well.

Maybe you are unsure what to do because you think you will make if you bid on and you think they will be down several if you double. Being unsure doesn't mean you dislike both actions, you could like both. It will not work out reasonably well if partner starts passing your forcing passes.

1= FP are a complicated subject. I gave an answer that will work for B/I's until they are ready or willing to tackle it correctly and in its entirety.

Since you seem to think you can give better advice, please be my guest at explaining FP correctly yet at a level understandable for the B/I forum.

It's often much easier to criticize others attempts to give decent advice than to actually try and do it oneself.

2= I explicitly said to pass only
=if you felt bad about both doubling AND bidding's chances of success=.
Not the silly thing you attempted to twist my advice into.

If both partners use the rule of thumb I gave, they may not get scores as good as experts will in every FP situation, but they should land on their feet most of the time.


As I said, if you want to get into the details of when a FP has been established, how many defensive tricks doubling vs passing shows in various auctions, ditto offensive tricks where bidding vs passing is concerned, what bidding immediately shows vs what pass and pull shows vs what X then bid shows if pard pulls the X, etc etc,... ...and you think you can do it at a level understandable and useful to B/I's... by all means =please= be my guest.

[foo]

cherdano, on Dec 30 2008, 08:21 AM, said:

You are 4333 and already have shown your support. In that situation, you should NEVER bid on.

In fact, I'll generalize this.

As the old saying goes "The 5 level belongs to the opponents".

Don't X or bid unless you a= =know= you can set Them, or b= have a surprise in terms of playing strength given the auction so far.

Flat hands will almost never have enough in the way of surprises to warrant them bidding "five over five".

[jdonn]

Foo I have been very nice to not be more critical. You are in the B/I forum telling them it's no problem when forcing passes get passed! And then you don't like being told that is wrong! I wasn't even attacking you, I was making a specific point using bridge logic, so I can really not care less if you take it personally. You tell me it's easier to criticize than give advice, well it's even easier to give bad advice then not post about things you don't know about too. At least for some of us.

[qwery_hi]

jdonn, on Dec 30 2008, 10:32 AM, said:

Foo I have been very nice to not be more critical. You are in the B/I forum telling them it's no problem when forcing passes get passed! And then you don't like being told that is wrong! I wasn't even attacking you, I was making a specific point using bridge logic, so I can really not care less if you take it personally. You tell me it's easier to criticize than give advice, well it's even easier to give bad advice then not post about things you don't know about too. At least for some of us.

I agree with jdonn. In some cases, eve B/I can recognize forcing pass situations.

e.g. 1S - 2S - 4S , and the an opponent bids 5C. In these situations, even if you are the responder and have a flat 6 count, if opener passes 5C, I would have to bid.

I would actually err on the other side - if they reach a competetive auction and my partner has passed and it may/maynot be a FP situation, a double would be safer than
a pass.

[foo]

qwery_hi, on Dec 30 2008, 11:04 AM, said:

I would actually err on the other side - if they reach a competetive auction and my partner has passed and it may/maynot be a FP situation, a double would be safer than
a pass.

It depends on the CoC and the level of the contract involved.

Just as doubling partscores is something one should be more careful about at IMPs rather than MPs, doubling games is far safer at IMPs compared to MPs. Slams should never be casually doubled.

The point about FP situations I'm trying to make here is that if you don't know the topic well enough to handle it reasonably well, then

NO AUCTION SHOULD BE A FORCING PASS AUCTION UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND THE TOPIC WELL ENOUGH TO HANDLE IT MOST OF THE TIME.

For B/I's, simply pretend the concept of FP does not exist.

Use judgement augmented by rules of thumb like the ones I gave and you will do fairly well until you have studied the topic of FP auctions well enough to use such agreements.

As josh's evident refusal to post a lesson on the topic shows, FP auctions are not in general a topic easy to explain or suitable for most B/I players.

[jdonn]

foo, on Dec 31 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

As josh's evident refusal to post a lesson on the topic shows, FP auctions are not in general a topic easy to explain or suitable for most B/I players.

I answered the original question in the context of a forcing pass, then corrected your completely terrible advice regarding a forcing pass, as I will do again right now: B/I players, please ignore the post directly before this one, it's awful advice that will negatively impact your bridge improvement. Keep asking good questions like the one that started this thread, and the topic will become easier to you.

You may want to consider alternative explanations for why I didn't accept your gracious invitation to talk about what you want me to talk about.

After that you may want to leave your little fantasy land and come join reality.