[jillybean]

Dealer: South Vul: All Scoring: IMP

♠ AQ972 ♥ AQJT4 ♦ 632 ♣

West North East South

 -     -     -     ? 
Do you plan to bid a routine 1♠/2♥/3♥ ? You can probably guess what I was thinking.

[jdonn]

Yes I do, and sorry I can't guess what you were thinking (1♠ 3♥? 1♥ 2♠?) but I certainly can see no good reason to do anything but bid normally.

[rogerclee]

jillybean2, on Dec 29 2008, 12:15 AM, said:

Do you plan to bid a routine 1♠/2♥/3♥ ?

Yes, I do.

[andy_h]

ditto

[jillybean]

Ok, I opened 1♠ but did think about 1♥/2♠. I have a tendancy to overbid this type of hand and seem to be the only one with this problem!

[neilkaz]

Do you plan to bid a routine 1♠/2♥/3♥ ?

Yes I do and I don't recommend distorting one's distribution to reverse with this hand.

[jdonn]

jillybean2, on Dec 29 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

Ok, I opened 1♠ but did think about 1♥/2♠. I have a tendancy to overbid this type of hand and seem to be the only one with this problem!

It's true that would be an overbid, but the real problem is your suits are equal length. I think one of the few bidding "rules" that you can safely say has no exceptions is that a reverse promises more length in the first suit than the second. The only remote exception I can think of is as a tactic on awkward 1444 type hands, but honestly if you never break that rule you are doing well Jilly.

[kenberg]

---

Here is a considerably stronger hand that perhaps illustrates the point being made.

I was S in the "Forum Indy"

1S-1N
3H-4H

The king of hearts was onside, partner took 12 quick tricks, there was time for discussion.

W asked why not open 1H and reverse?

I commented that since I held three hearts and two spades, all roads lead to 4H. But suppose I held three spades and two hearts.

Reverse the spade and heart holding in the S hand:
After 1H-1N-2S-2N then what? How will I, or either of us, come to realize we have more combined spades than hearts? I think the answer is that we wouldn't. 1H-1N-2S-2N-3S-4H would be the auction, with me expecting six hearts in partner's hand and partner having no idea I have three spades in my hand.

When 5-5 in the majors, the opening bid is 1S.

[RichMor]

jillybean2, on Dec 29 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

Ok, I opened 1♠ but did think about 1♥/2♠. I have a tendancy to overbid this type of hand and seem to be the only one with this problem!

Nope, I could not begin to guess what you might have been thinking.

Opening 1♥ is well.....................sort of weird.

[jillybean]

RichMor, on Dec 29 2008, 02:07 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Dec 29 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

Ok, I opened 1♠ but did think about 1♥/2♠. I have a tendancy to overbid this type of hand and seem to be the only one with this problem!

Nope, I could not begin to guess what you might have been thinking.

Opening 1♥ is well.....................sort of weird.

Maybe we should just post brilliant bidding decisions on here, if you think this is weird you probably haven’t been playing on BBO long enough.

Thanks Ken, Josh for the helpful replies.

[TimG]

jillybean2, on Dec 29 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

if you think this is weird you probably haven’t been playing on BBO long enough.

I think it is very common to be confused about reverses. I frequently encounter players who consider reversing with 55 to show the extra values.

I also frequently encounter players who are happy to reverse without extra values. Just last weekend, a player at my table opened 1♣ with ♠943 ♥ - ♦KJT3 ♣AK6432 and then rebid 2♦ over partner's 1♥ response. When dummy came down, declarer said something like "reverse shows 17+".

Bottom line: reverses in Standard American are commonly misunderstood.

[P_Marlowe]

1S, followed by 2H, 3H, I originally thought I
was 6-5.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[foo]

Jilly,

1= a reverse usually (as in "the vast majority of the time") shows a hand where the 2nd suit is shorter than the first.

2= any time you want to "fall in love with your hand", pretend partner has only 6 HCP and they are in the absolute worst spot they can be in for your hand. Then pretend partner has less than 6 HCP and will pass your opening bid.

If you still think your hand is good enough to force to the 3 level (reverse) or GF (jump shift) under those circumstances, then make a plan to bid strongly. Else, come back to earth.

♠AQ972 ♥AQJT4 ♦632 ♣

Feel safe playing at the 3 level if all CHO has is 6 HCP in ♣'s?
End of love affair. You should open 1S planning to rebid 2H.

♠AK972 ♥AKJT4 ♦K32 ♣

"Who cares where CHO has their 6 HCP!" Now =this= is a hand worth falling in love with! You open 1S like a human; planning to rebid 3H like a bridge player.

[inquiry]

kenberg, on Dec 29 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

---

Here is a considerably stronger hand that perhaps illustrates the point being made.

I was S in the "Forum Indy"

I remember this hand. I held the big one. I really hate opening 2♣ with a strong two suiter, in fact so much, I have adopted Mishovnbg's ideas about how to bid strong two suiters and developed a convention we call MisIry (for Misho and Inquiry)...

Obviously, in an individual, with a random partner (meaning not regular one, in this case jocdelevat), I wasn't playing MisIry. I decided to open 2♣ to establish a game force, since I could play in any of three suits (if partner lacked support for majors, we could try clubs).

Our bidding was

  P - 2♣ - 2♦! - DBL
3♦ - 4♦ - Dbl - 4♥
 P - 6♥ - all pass

I am not sure what I expected for the double of 2♦, but this wasn't it. Upon reflection, maybe he did have what dbl should show, I am not sure. Suffice it to say, we were the only pair to reach the slam. It is not a good slam, and I surely don't think we want to be there, but as noted, it made simply enough with the hearts spliting and the heart king on side.

With MisIry I would have landed quietly in 4♥.

[jdonn]

You opened a 5-5 18 count 2♣, with every suit having holes in it? Wow, no wonder you think it leads to bad auctions!

[Lobowolf]

jillybean2, on Dec 29 2008, 04:41 PM, said:

RichMor, on Dec 29 2008, 02:07 PM, said:

jillybean2, on Dec 29 2008, 12:48 PM, said:

Ok, I opened 1♠ but did think about 1♥/2♠. I have a tendancy to overbid this type of hand and seem to be the only one with this problem!

Nope, I could not begin to guess what you might have been thinking.

Opening 1♥ is well.....................sort of weird.

Maybe we should just post brilliant bidding decisions on here, if you think this is weird you probably haven’t been playing on BBO long enough.

Thanks Ken, Josh for the helpful replies.

Most of the ground has been covered, but to pinpoint what I see as the crux of the question --

As Josh pointed out, reversing would be an overbid, but let's say that it wouldn't, i.e. pick a random 5-5 hand that would be strong enough for a reverse. Jilly's subsequent posts suggest that she thought the original hand might be close to qualifying, so she considered reversing to show the strength. The point is that while reversing shows extra values, failing to reverse doesn't deny extra values. It's entirely appropriate to open 1X with a 16 point hand, then rebid 2 of a lower ranking suit. A common novice/intermediate error is jump-shifting with this sort of hand to show extras.

So the "1♠, then 2♥" sequence wouldn't suggest a minimum opening hand; it would only deny the strength (game forcing, so 19ish) needed to jump shift. But the reverse would show longer hearts than spades.

Sometimes for those hands that aren't strong enough to jump shift, it takes three bids to show your extra values.