[twcho]

Against wk 2M opening, one may choose to bid 4m to show 5+m and 5+OM, I guess this is called Leaping Michael (LM).

Some questions follows:
1. Is 4m forcing or can it be passed? Is this affected by the vulnerability?
2. Assuming it is forcing, what is the subsequent bid? Cue bid to show 1st round ctrl? What should the advancer hold in order to take further action to investigate for slam?
3. If the opening is Multi 2♦ instead, can we apply the concept of LM without knowing which M the opener hold?
4. If the multi opening include strong option, i.e. responder cannot pass. Can we make use of the available pass bid to differentiate which Major or minor we hold if we want to use LM?

[Cascade]

twcho, on Dec 30 2008, 05:53 PM, said:

Against wk 2M opening, one may choose to bid 4m to show 5+m and 5+OM, I guess this is called Leaping Michael (LM).

Some questions follows:
1. Is 4m forcing or can it be passed? Is this affected by the vulnerability?
2. Assuming it is forcing, what is the subsequent bid? Cue bid to show 1st round ctrl? What should the advancer hold in order to take further action to investigate for slam?
3. If the opening is Multi 2♦ instead, can we apply the concept of LM without knowing which M the opener hold?
4. If the multi opening include strong option, i.e. responder cannot pass. Can we make use of the available pass bid to differentiate which Major or minor we hold if we want to use LM?

1. It can be played as forcing or non-forcing. We played it as forcing but recently have changed to non-forcing although we only pass with a weak hand without a fit. Or maybe with a yarborough with a fit for partner's minor. For us 4m shows around a good 5-loser hand.

2. We play a new suit as natural limit bid and a cue of the opponents suit would be the only (ambiguous) cue. Quantitative bidding follows.

3. I don't like the ambiguity about a major.

4. That idea has some merit. However the extra round of bidding might make it difficult to resolve. If you did this then I think 4m= hearts and the minor would be best since hearts is more likely to be pre-empted by a spade raise.

Responder's do sometimes pass even when 2♦ is forcing.

As an aside in New Zealand a multi is not allowed unless it is forcing.

[Rossoneri]

twcho, on Dec 30 2008, 04:53 AM, said:

Against wk 2M opening, one may choose to bid 4m to show 5+m and 5+OM, I guess this is called Leaping Michael (LM).

Some questions follows:
1. Is 4m forcing or can it be passed? Is this affected by the vulnerability?
2. Assuming it is forcing, what is the subsequent bid? Cue bid to show 1st round ctrl? What should the advancer hold in order to take further action to investigate for slam?
3. If the opening is Multi 2♦ instead, can we apply the concept of LM without knowing which M the opener hold?
4. If the multi opening include strong option, i.e. responder cannot pass. Can we make use of the available pass bid to differentiate which Major or minor we hold if we want to use LM?

1. Either treatment is possible.
2. Depends on partnership agreement I think.
3. High potential for running into trouble if you play it this way.
4. How do you propose to do this?

[shevek]

Vs Multi 2♦, we like
4♣ = clubs & hearts, 4♦ = diamonds & hearts.

Hearts are more preemptable and spade hands can take care of themselves, starting with 2♠.

[OleBerg]

1) I play it as F1, meaning that partner cannot pass if next hand passes. Does not establish a force. A good 5-5 hand will back in with a double.

2) Whenever there is an intervening bid possible, it shows a good raise in the major suit, while 4NT shows a good raise in the minor.

In the sequence:

(2♠) - 4♦.

4♠ is with Diamonds and 4NT is with Hearts.

3) Like Shevek, after 2♦ it shows hearts and the minor.

4) In some cases, but often we bid immidiately.

[gnasher]

shevek, on Dec 30 2008, 07:53 AM, said:

Hearts are more preemptable [after a Multi]

This belief is widely held, but, I believe, incorrect.

If you pass holding spades when the opponents have a heart fit, the auction may continue
  2♦  pass 2♠  pass
  4♥

If you pass holding hearts when the opponents have a spade fit, the worst that can happen is
  2♦  pass 2♥  pass
  2♠

[gnasher]

1. I asked a similar question a few months ago. There was no consensus:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=28146

2. I think a cue bid just shows a suitable hand, perhaps one clearly useful card and a fit. Sorting out whether you have the strength takes precedence over checking for control in their suit.

Recently I held 3 J952 KT97 Q854 after (2♥) 4♦. I think that was worth 4♥.

3. Yes, imperfectly. After (2♦) 4♣, use 4♦ to show interest and anything else as pass or correct. After (2♦) 4♦, there's no room to show interest below game.

An improvement, I think, is:
  4♣ = clubs + a major
  4♦ = a 4M bid
  4♥ = hearts + diamonds
  4♠ = spades + diamonds

Facing diamonds, there's still no room to express interest, but at least you know what suits you're facing before you make your decision.

4. If 2♦ really is forcing, it's playable to pass with all hands containing hearts. Then after
  2♦ pass 2♥ pass
  2♠
anything (except, possibly, 2NT) shows hearts. For example, 3♣ shows five hearts and four clubs; 4♣ is leaping Michaels, etc.

That allows a defence like:
  Double = takeout of spades
  2♥ = takeout of hearts
  2♠ = natural

[marcD]

gnasher, on Dec 30 2008, 03:56 AM, said:

shevek, on Dec 30 2008, 07:53 AM, said:

Hearts are more preemptable [after a Multi]

This belief is widely held, but, I believe, incorrect.

If you pass holding spades when the opponents have a heart fit, the auction may continue
  2♦  pass 2♠  pass
  4♥

If you pass holding hearts when the opponents have a spade fit, the worst that can happen is
  2♦  pass 2♥  pass
  2♠

I agree and indeed play that leaping michaels show ♠+minor against multi. However, i think the critical issue is to have an agreement . Lack of preparation explain why multi is still around (I do play it in some partnerships but my experience is that it is not that effective against top pairs)

[OleBerg]

gnasher, on Dec 30 2008, 11:28 AM, said:

4. If 2♦ really is forcing, it's playable to pass with all hands containing hearts.  Then after
  2♦ pass 2♥ pass
  2♠
anything (except, possibly, 2NT) shows hearts.  For example, 3♣ shows five hearts and four clubs; 4♣ is leaping Michaels, etc.

That allows a defence like:
  Double = takeout of spades
  2♥ = takeout of hearts
  2♠ = natural

Interesting idée, but certainly not free. After:

  2♦ pass 2♥ pass
  2♠

I like to be able to bid 3♣ on something like:

♠ K32
♥ K4
♦ 32
♣ QJ10432

Is it worth giving up those bids, to play a more accurate defence with the stronger hands?

Opinions, preferbly backed by arguments, are welcome!

[OleBerg]

gnasher, on Dec 30 2008, 10:56 AM, said:

shevek, on Dec 30 2008, 07:53 AM, said:

Hearts are more preemptable [after a Multi]

This belief is widely held, but, I believe, incorrect.

If you pass holding spades when the opponents have a heart fit, the auction may continue
  2♦  pass 2♠  pass
  4♥

If you pass holding hearts when the opponents have a spade fit, the worst that can happen is
  2♦  pass 2♥  pass
  2♠

Quite right.

But if responder preempts to the 3- or 4-level (experienced multi-players will often do that), you are better of with spades than hearts, as you can get in a level lower.

[the hog]

gnasher, on Dec 30 2008, 03:56 PM, said:

shevek, on Dec 30 2008, 07:53 AM, said:

Hearts are more preemptable [after a Multi]

This belief is widely held, but, I believe, incorrect.

If you pass holding spades when the opponents have a heart fit, the auction may continue
  2♦  pass 2♠  pass
  4♥

If you pass holding hearts when the opponents have a spade fit, the worst that can happen is
  2♦  pass 2♥  pass
  2♠

Why on earth would you pass over 2D holding Spades? That is not what Nicoletta said. you are misquoting her.

[gnasher]

The_Hog, on Dec 30 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

Why on earth would you pass over 2D holding Spades? That is not what Nicoletta said. you are misquoting her.

I didn't actually misquote anyone, but I may have taken what was said out of context. I was discussing the general proposition that hearts are more preemptable than spades, which may not have been what shevek intended.

Considering the specific suggestion that heart-minor two suiters are more preemptable than spade-minor two suiters, that isn't true either.

If you overcall 2M when you have a five-card minor, then in either of the auctions
  2♦ 2♥ dbl pass
  4♠
and
  2♦ 2♠ dbl pass
  4♥
you have been prevented from showing your minor at a safe level, and neither hand has taken care of itself.

If, in fact, you decide to play (2♦) 4m as hearts and a minor, it probably is sensible to pass holding spades and a minor. Then after:
  2♦ pass 2♠ pass
  4♥
you can play double as spades+ clubs, and 4♠ as spades + diamonds.

[MFA]

Lots of nice ideas, gnasher!

Quote

An improvement, I think, is:
  4♣ = clubs + a major
  4♦ = a 4M bid
  4♥ = hearts + diamonds
  4♠ = spades + diamonds

Very interesting!

One random comment:

Quote

2. I think a cue bid just shows a suitable hand, perhaps one clearly useful card and a fit. Sorting out whether you have the strength takes precedence over checking for control in their suit.

Recently I held 3 J952 KT97 Q854 after (2♥) 4♦. I think that was worth 4♥.

I would expect a little more from 4♥. Leaping Michaels shows a nice hand, but one has to be practical also. When they have preempted it should be assumed that partner has a few values + reasonable fit or we would get shut out too often. Unless the singleton spade turns out to be golden this hand would often disappoint partner.

[shevek]

gnasher, on Dec 30 2008, 03:56 AM, said:

shevek, on Dec 30 2008, 07:53 AM, said:

Hearts are more preemptable [after a Multi]

This belief is widely held, but, I believe, incorrect.

If you pass holding spades when the opponents have a heart fit, the auction may continue
  2♦  pass 2♠  pass
  4♥

If you pass holding hearts when the opponents have a spade fit, the worst that can happen is
  2♦  pass 2♥  pass
  2♠

We choose this because our method vs Random multis is X = tko of higher ranking and suit step = tko of other so 2♥ = tko of hearts for us. Hence heart hands need all the help they can get.

[FrancesHinden]

1. Depends on agreement. I prefer to play it as forcing.
2. If you want to get into detailed agreements, it depends on the auction, because the amount of room you have varies depending on the exact sequence. After (2H) 4C you have two 'free' bids below 4 of partner's major, and another one below 5C, but after (2S) 4D you have no space below 4H.

3. Even when 2D may include a strong option, responder might still pass. It is by no means standard, but I play

(2D multi) -
4C = clubs and hearts
4D = clubs and spades

(2D multi) - x - (weeble) -
jump to 4C = diamonds and hearts
jump to 4D = diamonds and spades

where the double is 12-14 balanced or a very strong hand. A leaping michaels type hand counts as 'very strong'. You may be in trouble if you can't jump on the next round, you just have to hope for the best. The principal is that you double first on the hands with diamonds, so you won't be upset if you end up defending 2Dx.