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Another Discussion Hand

#1 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-January-02, 08:56

Without providing any of the actual hands, here's an auction to consider:

1♦-(2♠)-X(negative)-P-
3NT-P-4♠?

The thought process...

1. What kind of hand will Opener have? Could he have simple a "player" maximum, something like a 4432 14-count? Could he have an 18-19 count, balanced? Could he have a semi-gambling hand (long diamonds, spade stop, prayer)?

2. What should 4♠ show/ask? For that matter, and to distinguish 4♠, do 4♥, 4♦, and 4NT have meaning (of course, but what)?

3. If something "asks" Opener to clarify his hand type somehow, then how does Opener do this? If both 5♣ and 5♦ show long diamonds over some bid, how are they different?

My/Our Thoughts:
Spoiler

"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#2 User is offline   brianshark 

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Posted 2009-January-02, 09:09

1. A hand that expects to make 9 tricks in NT opposite a normal 10 count with 4+ hearts.

2. Artificial, forcing and interested in slam. 4♥ would be lots of hearts. I guess it would be a single-suited slam try. 4♦ would be lots of diamonds (as well as probably 4 hearts). Initially I would take this as forcing and scrambling for the best game rather than a slam try. 4NT is a quantitative invite to slam (~15 count).

3. Abstain. (Theorizing conventions is not my thing.)
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is.
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#3 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-January-02, 09:27

I don't knwo what 4♥wouldbe, imaginative bid I guess, something to picture shortness in clubs.

4♠ is spade shortness, probably void, with 3 suiter or red 2 suiter.
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#4 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-January-02, 10:36

brianshark, on Jan 2 2009, 10:09 AM, said:

3. Abstain. (Theorizing conventions is not my thing.)

You are not supposed to theorize conventions here. If 4♠ has any purpose, then Opener is expected to do something intelligent. Otherwise, just guess at what strain and level yourself.

So, what are his natural bids?

If 5♣ shows real clubs, then that's OK also, even if possibly strange. But, each call should mean something. If two calls must logically be based upon a certain hand type (maybe two calls do not handle the same hand type), then there must be something different between these two calls, one would think.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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#5 User is offline   ASkolnick 

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Posted 2009-January-02, 11:49

I actually think the most practical shape for him would be 1-4-3-5 and a strong hand, but a bad club suit.

With a good hand, he could just bid 3X over 2 Spades.
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#6 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-January-02, 12:29

1. I don't think any weak notrump should bid game. He could have 18-19 balanced, or a non-balanced hand that fancies 3NT. The latter type doesn't have to have solid diamonds - you have to bid something with AQx x Kxxxx AKJx, and 3♣ isn't forcing.

2. 4♣ is natural and game-forcing with 4 hearts and 5+ clubs. 4♦ is natural and shows primary diamonds. 4♥ is to play with long hearts. 4NT is a balanced slam try.

Possible meanings for 4♠:
- A non-specific slam try, asking for further information. That's what I'd assume without agreement, even though it overlaps somewhat with 4NT.
- A 4NT bid with secondary diamonds
- A 4♦ bid with short spades
- A 1435 slam try

3. If 4♠ is asking for further description, 4NT is discouraging, and five of a minor is just natural and encouraging.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#7 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-January-02, 12:33

1. Takes more than a weak notrump. Other than that, could be many different hands.
2. Splinter for diamonds is how I would take it. It would take some really detailed discussion for me to think bidding anything else is sane (meaning at the table, not in theory), though I grant that there may be other more useful meanings.
3. I abstain from this question.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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