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Kamikaze NT Don't have 2 B crazy - but does it help?

#1 User is offline   lexica 

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Posted 2004-April-24, 01:25

Provided I am lucky enough to find someone to learn and play it - is it a nice toy?
http://www.bridgeguy...azeNoTrump.html

How many out there play it?

Quote

  After the ACBL regulated that any No Trump opening with less than 10 high card points could not apply the usual conventions such as Stayman, Mr. John Kierein altered his Kamikaze No Trump opening to show values between 10 and 13 high card points.
from the article


Are there similar restrictions on BBO, or is it OK as long as you alert properly?

Thanks :)
Elena
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#2 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-April-24, 01:43

There are no system regulations on bbo, unless specifically mentioned for a particular tournament.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#3 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-April-24, 04:31

(9)10-13(14) 1NT opening can win only NV vs V from 1st and 2nd position, mainly at IMP, becaue of possibility opps to miss game or overbid with dbl while trying to reach it. Still is not good idea to use it, because it mean to sacrifice natural meaning of 1 opening (it must contain some NT range) and advantages of it. This fact as well as 1NT(10-13) can lead to own bad contracts(miss 4-4 M fit) negate negate big part of mini 1NT advantages. I even don't want to comment you need new bidding scheme after such opening...
P.S. If you like to be aggressive opener, read about "Ekrens" :)
Misho
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#4 User is offline   pbleighton 

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Posted 2004-April-24, 05:25

I play 11-14, which is very aggressive (and common), but which doesn't have the rebid problems you get with the mini. Assuming a 20-21 2NT, then 1x-P-1y-P-1NT shows 15-17, and 1x-P-1y-P-2NT still shows 18-19.

You can also play it vulnerable, if you don't mind a spanking once in a while :)

Peter
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#5 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-April-24, 15:04

I play 10-12 NT NV in 1st 2nd and 3rd seat and 12-14 Vul and NV in 4 th seat.
As long as you play a nice runout system, and you have a sane pd, you'll win a lot more then you lose. Just remember when playing it in real life, in ACBL country for sure, don't try to open with a 9 count 1 NT when NV and try to tell director you upgraded your hand, because of whatever reason. You will lose any appeal, and are going to be marked for remainder of that tournament.
I know because I had an opp who would open about any 8 or 9 count with 1 NT and have 10-12 on his card, and he would tell director he ugraded his hand, after he did second time, they took away most of his system he played. HCP and NT with ACBL is just that, especially the very weak NT, no upgrading.

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#6 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-April-25, 08:56

Jimmy (Luke Warm) likes it a lot - 10-13. His partner however didn't like the 10-pointers, so he now usually plays 11-13. His structure is online at http://home.san.rr.c...elucci/1NT.html
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#7 User is offline   aisha759 

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Posted 2004-April-25, 15:57

The good old days of bidding 1nt with 16-18pts are over :o
Then came along the 15-17, I have seen many open 12-14 (i'm one of those).....Now you're discussing 10-13pts B) Pretty soon "hari kiri nt" will evolve (wonder what the pt range will be for that :) maybe 6-9 pts? :blink:
Aisha :P
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#8 User is offline   Gerben47 

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Posted 2004-April-25, 17:09

I really like weak NTs, the weaker the better. However, if you want to cover your other ranges you need some system that covers this. Work out your NT staircase and make sure your ranges are not too large.

I regularly play 10 - 13 or 10 - 12 and have good results with it (NV 1st & 2nd)

3rd and 4th seat it is no use playing 1NT that weak, it defies all purposes for looking for game and since they know you are both weak you just get doubled. Also the frequency advantage is gone, when 2 or 3 players have passed in front of you, you are more likely to have stronger hand.
Vulnerable anything weaker than 12 - 14 is dangerous and might be bad even undoubled.

I'd say go for it! If you're used to 12 - 14 it's not a big step. Although every advantage has its disadvantage I think it's a big winner. So do some top pairs like Meckstroth - Rodwell and Auken - von Arnim (both play 9+ - 12 1st 2nd NV).

Gerben
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#9 User is offline   Gerben47 

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Posted 2004-April-25, 17:35

Ah just a short thing to add. Playing an extremely weak NT opening bid might seem dangerous. However the most horrible 1NTx story in my experience was caused by a 16-18 NT. You have 7 HCP and 4 + 5 and pass. LHO opens 1NT (16 - 18), partner passes and so does RHO.

You play Woolsey reopening double (showing exactly 4-card major and at least a 5-card minor) so you double which is passed out. Partner held a balanced 16-count (we do not play penalty doubles). Dummy wasn't a pretty sight.

Anyway it was 2-against-1 and 1100 resulted. The problem is against a weak NT the points would not have been 17-0 but 11-6, which makes it easier for declarer.

The most dangerous point counts for the opponents are just below game (like in this case 23) or between game and slam (around 29). However in the first case against a weak NT the points are 11-6 which keeps the cost down, if they really are 11-0 (which is rare) opponents may get nervous that they can make (much) more than the penalty and bid something.

Gerben
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#10 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 10:27

Gerben47, on Apr 25 2004, 06:09 PM, said:

3rd and 4th seat it is no use playing 1NT that weak, it defies all purposes for looking for game and since they know you are both weak you just get doubled. Also the frequency advantage is gone, when 2 or 3 players have passed in front of you, you are more likely to have stronger hand.
Vulnerable anything weaker than 12 - 14 is dangerous and might be bad even undoubled.

Gerben

10-12 NT NV in 3rd seat is a great weapon. It's about the best preempt you can use, pd can still have a 9 count.
It makes it really hard on opps.
Of course no sense in 4th seat, who you going to make it hard on, yourself ?
I play 12-14 then.

Mike :angry:
If there is dissatisfaction with the status quo, good. If there is ferment,
so much the better. If there is restlessness, I am pleased. Then let there
be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.
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#11 User is offline   tysen2k 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 13:09

Trpltrbl, on Apr 26 2004, 11:27 AM, said:

10-12 NT NV in 3rd seat is a great weapon. It's about the best preempt you can use, pd can still have a 9 count.
It makes it really hard on opps.
Of course no sense in 4th seat, who you going to make it hard on, yourself ?
I play 12-14 then.

I second this. Actually, our 3rd seat 1N gets extended to 8-14. We assume we never have a game since partner can't have many points and is not extreme shape. All 2-bids by partner are sign-offs, even 2. Absolutely a great preempt when combined with a weak-opening system.
A bit of blatant self-pimping - I've got a new poker book that's getting good reviews.
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#12 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 13:59

tysen2k, on Apr 26 2004, 02:09 PM, said:

Trpltrbl, on Apr 26 2004, 11:27 AM, said:

10-12 NT NV in 3rd seat is a great weapon. It's about the best preempt you can use, pd can still have a 9 count.
It makes it really hard on opps.
Of course no sense in 4th seat, who you going to make it hard on, yourself ?
I play 12-14 then.

I second this. Actually, our 3rd seat 1N gets extended to 8-14. We assume we never have a game since partner can't have many points and is not extreme shape. All 2-bids by partner are sign-offs, even 2. Absolutely a great preempt when combined with a weak-opening system.

Whats so great about this weapon ?
As much as i think about it, the only true value of this is that your weak opponents dont know how to play against this or maybe when they hear the 1nt they get scared.
In general playing a non natural prempt has a problem as for its premptive value because opponents can double it and double isnt forcing !
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#13 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-April-26, 14:56

What's so great about this weapon? Are you kidding me? Not only does it take away the entire one-level from opps, it gives valuable information to partner so he can easilly get into the auction with a playable contract and take even more bidding space from opps without a big risk. In 3rd hand it's rather a destructive methods, but in my experience destructive methods work a lot of time!
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#14 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 11:47

It's ok.
I know it works real good. And last few times I beat Meckwell in regional it was because of swing on 3rd seat 10-12 NT's. Wouldn't dare to call them weak :(

Mike :)
If there is dissatisfaction with the status quo, good. If there is ferment,
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#15 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 12:29

Free, on Apr 26 2004, 03:56 PM, said:

What's so great about this weapon? Are you kidding me? Not only does it take away the entire one-level from opps, it gives valuable information to partner so he can easilly get into the auction with a playable contract and take even more bidding space from opps without a big risk. In 3rd hand it's rather a destructive methods, but in my experience destructive methods work a lot of time!

Im not kidding you.
Compare the premptive value of 1sp or any natural bid to the premptive value of 1nt.
The main diffence and the main weakness of the 1nt is that (1nt) D (p)
is not forcing.
Its also might be possible to think of a forcing or semi forcing pass system after this 1nt. (maybe ill post something later)
I believe a big part of this weapon success is the opponents knowlege of how to play against it, or their fear of the 1NT bid.
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#16 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 12:45

I play 1NT-(dbl)-pass as forcing for one round and it can be weak, can be strong, whatever... Opener redoubles usually and responder can bid any suit at 2 level with a weak hand, if opps keep quiet ofcourse.
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#17 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 13:46

Most good pairs that play anything other than a strong NT will have well defined escape structures.

We play after 1NT (X)

2X = lowest of 2 touching suits
XX = transfer to 2C, corrected to any single suit
Pass = transfer to xx, either passed (rare) or the lowest of 2 non-touching suits is shown. This sequence scores us +470 an awful lot more than -300.

I usually play 11-14 NT
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#18 User is offline   ehhh 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 15:25

I find that using 11-14 NT non-vul and 15-18 vul works quite well....the 4 pt range is useful with super accept responses to 2C's.
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#19 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 16:58

Free, on Apr 29 2004, 01:45 PM, said:

I play 1NT-(dbl)-pass as forcing for one round and it can be weak, can be strong, whatever... Opener redoubles usually and responder can bid any suit at 2 level with a weak hand, if opps keep quiet ofcourse.

I wasnt clear.
I ment that after (1NT) D (pass) the partner of the doubler doesnt have to take this bid out like he had to do after any natural bid instead of the 1NT. this is the weakness of the 1nt as a premptive.
Now the escape formulas make this 1nt even less atractive because if i know you have an escape formula im sure i can found a way to make my bids super accurate.
This claim of main isnt a practicle claim, nor that im saying that using kamikaz NT is a bad idea, but im telling you that the NT as a premptive isnt as strong as a natural bid as premptive, this is a fact that can be proved. yet the 1nt will accure more times then a natural bid and this is its power.
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#20 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-April-29, 17:57

How about this diffence to kamikaze 1nt.
This is just a general idea, so ill speak in general , like when im saying "major"
Im not yet sure if that mean just a 4 in one major, or something better, also the Hcp (10) is just a random number i choose

Double = major ,10+ hcp, or very strong.
Pass = 10- hcp or no major.
Now after
(1NT) D (p) ?

Pass = some hcp and dont see much future in a major contract.
bid = think i can get something better then 1nt D ,probebly either something nice in major or an offensive distribution, or just too weak and afraid to pass it (this wont happend if i know they have an escape formula here !)

after
(1NT) P (P) ?

Double = major with good hcp ( i think this should be lil bit stronger then the direct D)
Pass = weak
bid = nice distibution. (didnt think of specific meaning , and irelevant to the idea)

and now to the cool part
(1NT) p (p) D
(P) ?

pass = no major with good hcp,couldnt double imidiatly because of no major.
bid = way to show major weaker then imidiate D, or a nice offensive hand

This is cool because i pass the double when we have no fit and i bid when we have a fit, which is a good way using the total tricks law.
This got some risks but i think the risks for the 1nt per are bigger.

another simple way that i would consider, is to double with spade and bid with heart.
Double = 4+ spade and probebly another suit.
bid = hearts + other suit.
the double here will give my partner a good apportunity to leave it if we have no fit.
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