[Hanoi5]

You hold:

♠KQ8xxx
♥x
♦Kx
♣KJxx

With No one Vul. it goes:

Pass 1♥ Pass 1♠
Pass 3♣ Pass ???

You play 2/1 and nothing special in this sequence, what's your rebid? what do you plan on doing? It's an imp's event, does that affect your decision?.

[kenrexford]

This is tough.

A simplistic approach would be to simply bid 4NT as keycard for clubs, get the response, and then ask for the Queen if partner has four Aces. If not, resolve to 6♣.

The problem is that clubs could be manufactured.

So, I'll start with a 4♣ call.

[han]

This is easy, 4C.

[Codo]

No matter what 3 Club shows (i.e. fake jump or real suit), 4 Club is right.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4C.

We found a fit, I show the fit, it will simplify the auction.
The alternative is 3D, hopefully agreed as FSF.
The problem with FSF is, that after 3H a 4C is not strong
anymore, it is a weakness bid, so while it would be great
to hear 3S, you have to cater for 3H.
I can of course bid 3S after 3H, but this would set spades
as trumps, and my suit is not good enough for that.

Similar, the auction will get complicate, if I bid 3S instead
of 3D or 4C, what will my bids mean, if partner bids 3NT?

With kind regards
Marlowe

[maggieb]

4♣ followed by blackwood. 4NT here is quantitative.

[Fluffy]

kenrexford, on Dec 17 2008, 08:38 PM, said:

The problem is that clubs could be manufactured.

I am most worried that he has only 2 keycards. I agree that 4♣ seems like the best move.

But I won't bid 4NT with our lack of keycards, it will have to be partner. I will try cheapest cue whenver I can and accept if he bids 5♣ at some point.

[RichMor]

kenrexford, on Dec 17 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

This is tough.

A simplistic approach would be to simply bid 4NT as keycard for clubs, get the response, and then ask for the Queen if partner has four Aces.  If not, resolve to 6♣.

The problem is that clubs could be manufactured.

So, I'll start with a 4♣ call.

Ken,

OK, Clubs could be 'manufactured'.

After a 4♣ call, what bids by pard will tell us that:
Clubs are manufactured ?
Clubs are not manufactured?

[kenrexford]

RichMor, on Dec 18 2008, 11:58 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Dec 17 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

This is tough.

A simplistic approach would be to simply bid 4NT as keycard for clubs, get the response, and then ask for the Queen if partner has four Aces.  If not, resolve to 6♣.

The problem is that clubs could be manufactured.

So, I'll start with a 4♣ call.

Ken,

OK, Clubs could be 'manufactured'.

After a 4♣ call, what bids by pard will tell us that:
Clubs are manufactured ?
Clubs are not manufactured?

3♣ could be manufactured in two possible scenarios.

1. Opener has self-playing hearts, GF values, and wrong for a 2♣ opening or a NAMYATS opening. If the partnership allows this meaning, then Opener's next call will be 4♥.

2. Opener has a monster with spade support and wrong for some other call. If he has that hand, 4♠ will be his next call

Thus, at least 4♦ is available (and maybe 4♥) to handle the "really had clubs" position. So, I would expect a 4♦ call by Opener to set trumps. For that matter, I would probably use 4♦ as Kickback here, personally.

[Free]

4♣ wtp

[whereagles]

maggieb, on Dec 18 2008, 03:23 PM, said:

4♣ followed by blackwood. 4NT here is quantitative.

I don't agree with it being quantitative at all, because for it to be so, one must have exausted all possibilities of a fit (not the case here).

So 4NT for me, though I would definitely bid 4♣ if there's a chance pard might misunderstand it.

Oh. And for me 3♣ = 4 cards

[RichMor]

kenrexford, on Dec 18 2008, 12:14 PM, said:

RichMor, on Dec 18 2008, 11:58 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Dec 17 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

This is tough.

A simplistic approach would be to simply bid 4NT as keycard for clubs, get the response, and then ask for the Queen if partner has four Aces.  If not, resolve to 6♣.

The problem is that clubs could be manufactured.

So, I'll start with a 4♣ call.

Ken,

OK, Clubs could be 'manufactured'.

After a 4♣ call, what bids by pard will tell us that:
Clubs are manufactured ?
Clubs are not manufactured?

3♣ could be manufactured in two possible scenarios.

1. Opener has self-playing hearts, GF values, and wrong for a 2♣ opening or a NAMYATS opening. If the partnership allows this meaning, then Opener's next call will be 4♥.

2. Opener has a monster with spade support and wrong for some other call. If he has that hand, 4♠ will be his next call

Thus, at least 4♦ is available (and maybe 4♥) to handle the "really had clubs" position. So, I would expect a 4♦ call by Opener to set trumps. For that matter, I would probably use 4♦ as Kickback here, personally.

Ken,

Thanks. It all seems very reasonable.

Do you have any concerns that option 2 - monster with Spade support - could conflict with control bidding ?

For example, is the sequence
1♥ - 1♠
3♣ - 4♣
4♠ - ?

possible when opener holds a hand like
♠Ax ♥AKQxxx ♦x ♣AQxx

[kenrexford]

RichMor, on Dec 18 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

]Ken,

Thanks. It all seems very reasonable.

Do you have any concerns that option 2 - monster with Spade support - could conflict with control bidding ?

For example, is the sequence
1♥ - 1♠
3♣ - 4♣
4♠ - ?

possible when opener holds a hand like
♠Ax ♥AKQxxx ♦x ♣AQxx

Yes. I have that concern. However, my own cost-benefit analysis suggests to me that this concern is less than the cost of not being able to effectively use manufactured jump shifts.

For me, the 3♣ call, when manufactured, will not be the heart strain version. With that hand, I would have opened 2♣ or 4♣. So, the sole missing cue would be 4♠.

Because of this, over 4♣, 4♦ would be a cue, 4♥ Kickback, 4♠ natural, and 4NT a spade cue. I can afford to not have an "internal" cue (hearts) more than an external cue, IMO.

Were I playing that 4♥ would also be natural, then 4♦ would be a "general" cue. I would expect, then, that Responder could cue spades, hearts, or diamonds (4NT for diamonds).

[FrancesHinden]

I admit I think I would bid 3S here. If partner bids 4D or 4S my life is easy, we're going to play in spades. If partner bids 3NT, I will bid 4C. If partner bids 4H my life is slightly less easy but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I am concerned that partner doesn't have 4 clubs, or that even if he does we might be better in spades.

[mike777]

Hanoi5, on Dec 17 2008, 12:35 PM, said:

You hold:

♠KQ8xxx
♥x
♦Kx
♣KJxx

With No one Vul. it goes:

Pass 1♥ Pass 1♠
Pass 3♣ Pass ???

You play 2/1 and nothing special in this sequence, what's your rebid? what do you plan on doing? It's an imp's event, does that affect your decision?.

4c, easy.

agree if pard has manufactured 3c then she has great long hearts or spades.

1h=1s
3c=4c
4d=kickback for clubs.
4h=natural, great hearts
4s=natural, slam try in spades.
4nt=diamond cuebid, agree clubs.(would not be shocked if opener has spade void here)

btw I expect with 3 loser hand and great one suit hearts and controls pard would have opened 2c.
btw2 I expect very often with 4 loser hand and great one suit hearts and controls pard would have opened 2c.

[foo]

FrancesHinden, on Dec 18 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

I admit I think I would bid 3S here. If partner bids 4D or 4S my life is easy, we're going to play in spades. If partner bids 3NT, I will bid 4C. If partner bids 4H my life is slightly less easy but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I am concerned that partner doesn't have 4 clubs, or that even if he does we might be better in spades.

I agree with Frances. Opener's JS established a GF. Why not tell him we have all these ♠'s before supporting ♣'s? That's even more important if 3C could be artificial.

[Tcyk]

I agree with Mike. If opener doesn't use 4D (kickback), I am not going to ask him about key cards. If I really thought the hand belonged in slam, and wasn't playing a strong club system, I could use 4D, Redwood, to ask about key cards which would let me stop in 5C but would completely give up any chance of finding a spade fit.