[luke warm]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 1♦    Pass  1♥    2♣
 3♣    Dbl   Pass  Pass
 3♥    Pass  4♥    Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

imagine for a moment that 3♣ wasn't doubled... what would 3♥ by east mean? would it be to play, game invitation, or game force?

now in the actual bidding, after 3♣ is doubled, what does pass by east mean? and what does 3♥ by west mean? is it invitational or is it a game force or is it a slam try? if it is a game force, why wasn't 4♥ bid?

[the hog]

luke warm, on Apr 20 2004, 12:21 PM, said:

West  North East  South

 1♦    Pass  1♥    2♣
 3♣    Dbl   Pass  Pass
 3♥    Pass  4♥    Dbl
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

imagine for a moment that 3♣ wasn't doubled... what would 3♥ by east mean? would it be to play, game invitation, or game force?

now in the actual bidding, after 3♣ is doubled, what does pass by east mean? and what does 3♥ by west mean? is it invitational or is it a game force or is it a slam try? if it is a game force, why wasn't 4♥ bid?

Quite frankly, West is off with the fairies for perpetrating this abysmal auction.

What is this 3C bid? In the first instance, I would take it as a C stopper ask, so 3H should now deny a C stopp and show a decent 5 card H suit. I shouldn't think it is GF AT THIS STAGE. Once West supports H, the 3H bid shows a huge hand, clearly GF as he could have made a limit raise the previous round. In fact he is too good for a 4H bid.

After the X, East's pass says no C stopp, no decent 5 card H suit. I would certainly say that West's 3H is now a GF - why did West not make the valued bid of 3H earlier? This shows a stronger hand, which west clearly does not have; he is at least an Ace and a stiff C short for this bidding. Imho I would not even find the limit raise to 3H on West's hand; I don't think it is worth much more than 2H. Why wasn't 4H bid? Well, West is showing a monster. Very bad bidding by West; he endplayed East in the auction - 100% to blame.

[luke warm]

ok, 3♣ isn't game force and isn't a heart cuebid, it's a no trump ask... therefore the pass over the double shows no club stop... then the 3♥ bid shows slam interest vs. an overcaller and an advancer who doubles

i agree that the hand wasn't strong enough for the 3♣ bid, i'm just not sure it's forcing past 3♥... iow, had east bid 3♥ over the double, would a pass by west be comprehensible?

[the hog]

"then the 3♥ bid shows slam interest vs. an overcaller and an advancer who doubles"

Who do you trust Jimmy, the opponents or your partner? I have generally found it pays to trust partner. 3C HAS to be forcing past 3H when opener now raises H to the 3 level as opener had a 3H raise available initially. The bid MUST show a stronger hand

How else would you bid
♠ AKx
♥ Q643
♦ AKJ74
♣ x

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Apr 20 2004, 12:38 PM, said:

"then the 3♥ bid shows slam interest vs. an overcaller and an advancer who doubles"

Who do you trust Jimmy, the opponents or your partner? I have generally found it pays to trust partner. 3C HAS to be forcing past 3H when opener now raises H to the 3 level as opener had a 3H raise available initially. The bid MUST show a stronger hand

How else would you bid
♠ AKx
♥ Q643 
♦ AKJ74 
♣ x

ron, i agree that the 3♣ bid was most likely not the correct bid... but i'm still confused about something... in your original post you wrote, "I shouldn't think it is GF AT THIS STAGE."

ok, i understand the 'at this stage' thing... now *if* it wasn't forcing at that stage, what makes it forcing after east passes north's double? what action is available to show its non-forcing nature, if in fact it was non-forcing? redouble? surely not 4♥ (a game bid after a non-forcing cue)...

while i agree that 3♣ should show a stronger hand than an immediate 2♥, i still don't understand what opener can do after the double is passed *if the bid wasn't GF to begin with*... i don't know, perhaps redouble is correct

oh, on the hand you gave i think a 4♣ bid should do

[Fluffy]

I agreee with you Ron, but I beleive the hand you posted is the standard splinter hand

[the hog]

ok, i understand the 'at this stage' thing... now *if* it wasn't forcing at that stage, what makes it forcing after east passes north's double? what action is available to show its non-forcing nature, if in fact it was non-forcing? redouble? surely not 4♥ (a game bid after a non-forcing cue)...

Jimmy, when opener bids 3C initially, responder is not sure what sort of handtype opener has. As I said, this can be a huge hand with a fit, or it can be a hand angling for 3N, probably based on a long D suit and asking for a C stopper.

Ok now the auction progresses with a X and a pass - denying a C stopper showing a minimum and no good 6 card H suit etc. . IF opener had the hand based on long Ds what would he bid now? 3D! When he bids 3H he now says "I didn't have the long D hand that was looking for a stopper, I have a massive hand in support of H. Why massive? well he could have bid 3H or 4H directly over the 2C intervention. 3H would have been invit - something similar to the actual hand you posted. That he did not do that shows that he has a better hand than an immediate 3H bid, in fact one that is interested in going beyond game.

Re the hand I used as an example - imo this is actually too good for a splinter with such a source of D tricks, but anyway here is another -
AK
AJxx
AKJTx
xx
How else would you bid this apart from with the given auction?
Opposite
xxxx
KQxx
xxx
kx
Slam is reasonable and give responder the D Q and slam is excellent.

Cheers
Ron

[Flame]

Its all depend on what the 3c bid show, if its a genral strong with or without support then 3h is a minimum hand that have nothing better to bid meaning no stoper or a second suit to show.
After the double east has the extra choice of passing and he will use it unless he got something to show, i wouldnt take the pass to show extra here, but to show lack of better bid, usually with ouly 4 hearts and no stoper.

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Apr 21 2004, 12:42 AM, said:

Jimmy, when opener bids 3C initially, responder is not sure what sort of handtype opener has. As I said, this can be a huge hand with a fit, or it can be a hand angling for 3N, probably based on a long D suit and asking for a C stopper.

Ok now the auction progresses with a X and a pass - denying a C stopper showing a minimum and no good 6 card H suit etc. . IF opener had the hand based on long Ds what would he bid now? 3D! When he bids 3H he now says "I didn't have the long D hand that was looking for a stopper, I have a massive hand in support of H. Why massive? well he could have bid 3H or 4H directly over the 2C intervention. 3H would have been invit - something similar to the actual hand you posted. That he did not do that shows that he has a better hand than an immediate 3H bid, in fact one that is interested in going beyond game.

Re the hand I used as an example - imo this is actually too good for a splinter with such a source of D tricks, but anyway here is another -
AK
AJxx
AKJTx
xx
How else would you bid this apart from with the given auction?
Opposite
xxxx
KQxx
xxx
kx
Slam is reasonable and give responder the D Q and slam is excellent.

Cheers
Ron

as i said before, perhaps 3♣ wasn't the best bid available... however, that was the bid so the main question to answer (in my mind) is, "is 3♣ a game force?"

it seems to me it either is or it isn't... if it is, yes all that you said tracks... if it isn't then opener has to have some way to show that it wasn't... and as flame said, how can opener stop below game IF the 3♣ bid wasn't a game force? and when the double of 3♣ was passed, the east hand shows weakish with 4 hearts

for what it's worth, east thought 3♣ was a heart game force, or at least a game force somewhere...

sure, in hindsight 2♥ would work out better *this* time... and i'd think 3♥ should show that hand with 17 or so hcp

on the example hand you gave i'd bid 4♥... it should show that type hand, 19 or 20 hcp with 4 card support

btw, if 1nt is 11-13 and a 1nt rebid is 14-17, would that factor into it?

[the hog]

Ok What I am saying is that Opener's 3C followed by 3H IS a GF.
Re the NT question. No I don't think so, as you are showing H support here - different hand entirely.

Ron

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Apr 22 2004, 12:31 AM, said:

Ok What I am saying is that Opener's 3C followed by 3H IS a GF.
Re the NT question. No I don't think so, as you are showing H support here - different hand entirely.

Ron

ok, last question then i'll bury this dead horse... since opener's 3C wasn't a game force in and of itself (but became so because of his 3H bid), what should he have bid to stop below game, after the X was passed to him? a redouble? thanks

[the hog]

Yes, good question and that is the problem Jimmy! Had his 3C bid been based on long Ds, looking for a C stopper for 3N, he could have bid 3D. However because he based the 3C bid on H support, you can't stop below game imho. The 3H bid now shows the really strong hand; that was why I said you were snookered in the auction.

[Flame]

luke warm, on Apr 21 2004, 06:18 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Apr 22 2004, 12:31 AM, said:

Ok What I am saying is that Opener's 3C followed by 3H IS a GF.
Re the NT question. No I don't think so, as you are showing H support here - different hand entirely.

Ron

ok, last question then i'll bury this dead horse... since opener's 3C wasn't a game force in and of itself (but became so because of his 3H bid), what should he have bid to stop below game, after the X was passed to him? a redouble? thanks

3♣ was a general cue that will try to define its perpose on the next bid and then it will show, i have this shape and stronger then i could have bid it directly, in the 3 level most of the time he wont find another bid but thats the genral way.
so if you cue bid and then support you show a hand that was too good to support in a non cue bids way, this mean a hand stronger then 2h and 3h, which can be considered GF maybe, but the tatle GF isnt the main thing, the point is that its better then any direct bid you could give for your type of hand, and when it happend to be a support (knowing that when you bid 3h) we know how strong it must be.
I'll give you another example to clear this u. (1♦) D p 2♦
your cue bid can mean many things, usually only after the next bid partner will know how strong you are, if for example you will bid a new suit on the next bid he will know that you have that suit and stronger then showing it directly with a jump.
if you support diamond next partenr will know you are stronger then any direct support you have in your system, and if he bid NT partner will know you are streonger then the direct NT bids.

[mishovnbg]

I play with Ben here 2NT as inv+ raise of ♥, so I don't need to bid 3♣ cue to show slam interest. 3♣ ask for stopper only with solid 6+♦ and in example rdbl show&ask for semi stopper, 3♥ doesn't show slam interest, but Tx/xxx support in ♥ and is try for 4♥ game, because lack of ♣ stopper and it even can be passed if 4♥/5♦ is unlikely.
Misho

[Trpltrbl]

3♣ is asking for stopper for 3 NT or is good hand with ♥ support. Either way east has to bid 3♦, showing a hand with no ♣ stopper.
I think 2♥ directly would have done the job just fine, and then you would have not been in this trouble. Or how about opening 1 NT ? You have 15 count, if you don't like it enough to open 1 NT why is is getting better after opps 2♣ bid ?
Open 1 NT or rebid 2♥.
It tends to help when you think ahead of the bidding.

Mike