[Hanoi5]

Playing 2/1, Forcing NT, what's the difference in HCP in the following sequences:

1♥ 1NT (forcing)
2♥ ???
3♥ ???
4♥ ???

[awm]

Basically I would add about 3 points for each heart beyond the sixth. So roughly:

2♥ = 11-15 and 6♥ or 10-12 and 7♥
3♥ = 16-18 and 6♥ or 13-15 with 7♥
4♥ = 16-18 with 7♥ or 13-15 with 8♥

With less than 10 hcp I wouldn't open 1♥ (would preempt some number of hearts). With 10-12 hcp and 8♥ I would also open 4♥.

With 19+ hcp and 6+♥ or with 16+ and 8+♥ one should either jump shift in a minor (to establish game forcing values, even if a 3-card minor) and follow this up with a heart rebid, or if a bit better than the minimums here open 2♣. Also possible is to play some form of Namyats to cover some of these hands.

Of course, the point ranges etc. will vary a bit depending on who you ask, but the general theme is that 3♥ is stronger than 2♥ and 4♥ is "stronger" than 3♥ but the strength comes in the form of extra hearts/extra shape and not extra high cards.

[ArtK78]

I don't know that I would assign specific high-card point ranges to each of the bids.

It is better to think of the distinctions this way:

After 1♥ - 1NT:

2♥ - Minimum opening bid with at least 6 hearts.

3♥ - Invitational to game with at least 6 hearts.

4♥ - Willing to play game in hearts opposite a forcing 1NT response.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Nov 21 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

3♥ - Invitational to game with at least 6 hearts.

This has no meaning without a point range assigned to it (when partner opens 1NT 8 points might be invitational to game.) I think it's well understood the point range is merely a rough approximation.

[awm]

Another point worth mentioning is that these various heart rebids (especially the jumps) should show a good suit. If you have six hearts but they're really bad, it sometimes pays to look for another call such as rebidding two of a 3-card minor or rebidding 2NT (with extra values but six weak hearts). Of course occasionally you are "stuck" and have to rebid 3♥ on a mediocre suit.

[ArtK78]

jdonn, on Nov 21 2008, 04:48 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 21 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

3♥ - Invitational to game with at least 6 hearts.

This has no meaning without a point range assigned to it (when partner opens 1NT 8 points might be invitational to game.) I think it's well understood the point range is merely a rough approximation.

Of course it has meaning. To paraphrase the late great Justice Potter Stewart, "I know an invitational hand when I see it."

Beginners are taught that you need 37 HCP for a grand slam. But it doesn't take too much imagination to figure out that the right 10 count will produce a grand slam.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Nov 21 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 21 2008, 04:48 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 21 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

3♥ - Invitational to game with at least 6 hearts.

This has no meaning without a point range assigned to it (when partner opens 1NT 8 points might be invitational to game.) I think it's well understood the point range is merely a rough approximation.

Of course it has meaning. To paraphrase the late great Justice Potter Stewart, "I know an invitational hand when I see it."

Fantastic. So for the original poster who doesn't know it when he sees it and wants to learn how to see it, we will say "If Art believes it's invitational to game", that should teach him!

[awm]

Art's definition is okay, but I would add the following:

When we say "invitational" opposite a 1NT forcing response what we mean is that we are inviting game opposite a non-forcing 1NT response. Thus, we have enough that game is possible opposite the right 8-9 hcp hand.

While the forcing 1NT response could easily be a better hand than this, if partner does have such a hand he will normally not pass after we rebid 2♥.

This is why I set the point range as something like 16-18 (obviously it is less with more shape).