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SLAM?!?!?!?!

#1 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 01:14

All of these hands are MP:

1) Jxxx AJx Qx xxxx. 1D from pard, 1S by you, 4C from pard (splinter). BID? (if so what?)

2) Ax Kxxxx Ax xxxx. 1H from you, 4C (splinter) from pard which has a max of 13 HCP. BID? (if so what?)

3) Jxxx Axxx KJxx x. 1D from pard, 1H by you, 4H from pard. BID? (if so what?)

4) xx 9xxx Qxx QJ9x. 2C from pard, 2D by you (waiting, not positive or negative), 2H kokish by pard, 2S forced by you, 3C by pard (H+C). 3H by you, 4C from pard. BID? (if so what).

Also, in hand 4 do you think 3H then 4H by you would show extras since you didn't jump to 4H the first time, or could 3H then 4H sequence be a doubleton like xxxx KT xxxx xxx (perhaps with a small club being a small diamond).
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#2 User is offline   mikestar 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 02:18

1) I'd bid 4, then decline any invitation. With no waste in clubs, we could have a slam if partner is on the high end in HCP or has a void.

2) Here you need a void. A perfecto like Kxx AQxx Kxxxx x or similar might only make 11 tricks. The rare hand where I would sign off with no waste. Give me the Q instead of a low one, and 4 seems obvious to me.

3) Pass. While slam is possible if partner has no club waste, there is no five-level safety if he does. In addition, no call you can make pinpoints the club stiff. Also, since partner does not have a splinter, spades may be a problem. Slam is too unlikely to risk the five level.

4) 4. You have one useful card opposite a heart-club two-suiter (Q). If that was enough, partner should have bid 5. As to your second question, I don't think it shows extras per se, just a hand that wasn't suitable for 4. By the way, I like 4 direct over 3--you want hearts to be trump and slam is just about out of the question. The requirement for 4 should be similar to those for 2-2-2-4 when not playing Kokish: good trump support but no first or second round control in any side suit. (9xxx is a bit of a stretch, but the club values compensate in the actual sequence).
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#3 User is offline   dicklont 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 02:25

1. 4 I like Q and A.

2. 4 But this one is tricky, we could end too high

3. Pass

4. 4. Yes I think 3 then 4 shows something, so it's a good description for this.
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#4 User is offline   655321 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 04:02

1) 4 then pass 4

2) 4 then pass 4

3) Pass

4) Don't feel I am able to say anything sensible here. When partner bid 3, our hand is completely unknown - could still be anything? And how many hearts and clubs did 3 show?
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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#5 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 04:03

rogerclee, on Nov 15 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

1) Jxxx AJx Qx xxxx. 1D from pard, 1S by you, 4C from pard (splinter). BID? (if so what?)


4. Seven of my points are sure to be hardworking, and the J might be very usefull, if we have to ruff to clubs in partners hand. I do not move again.

Quote

2) Ax Kxxxx Ax xxxx. 1H from you, 4C (splinter) from pard which has a max of 13 HCP. BID? (if so what?)


4. LTTC. I don't move again.

Quote

3) Jxxx Axxx KJxx x. 1D from pard, 1H by you, 4H from pard. BID? (if so what?)


Very tough. I pass. This hand highlights the need to have another bid than 4 available, when you have a balanced 18-19 count. Slem might be laydown and 5 might be off, and we have absolutely no way of finding out.

Quote

4) xx 9xxx Qxx QJ9x. 2C from pard, 2D by you (waiting, not positive or negative), 2H kokish by pard, 2S forced by you, 3C by pard (H+C). 3H by you, 4C from pard. BID? (if so what).


4.

Quote

Also, in hand 4 do you think 3H then 4H by you would show extras since you didn't jump to 4H the first time, or could 3H then 4H sequence be a doubleton like xxxx KT xxxx xxx (perhaps with a small club being a small diamond).


No. This sequence simply shows preference betweem clubs and hearts. I would have bid 4 the first time, or 4 if I felt I was to good for 4.
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Best Regards Ole Berg

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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#6 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 10:11

1. Agree with LTTC <-- Correction below; should bid 4
2. Enough for 4 LTTC here also
3. I think this is good enough, personally. 5 for me.
4. 4. Not even close. Partner has no spade control. 3 unquestionably agreed hearts, especially with Responder having an easy punt bid of 3 available. If 3 does not agree hearts in this sequence, then your approach is hopelessly amd unnecessarily ambiguous.
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#7 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 10:54

kenrexford, on Nov 15 2008, 06:11 PM, said:

4. 3 unquestionably agreed hearts, especially with Responder having an easy punt bid of 3 available.  If 3 does not agree hearts in this sequence, then your approach is hopelessly amd unnecessarily ambiguous.

2 was waiting and 2 was forced. So after 3, 3 is responders first chance to introduce a diamond suit. It should be natural.
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Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#8 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 15:47

1. Have we seen this one before? I'd bid 4, showing a heart control and denying a diamond control.

I notice that Ken says he agrees with 4 as Last Train, but so far as I can see no one else has suggested that that's what it means. I can't see much benefit in playing Last Train opposite a hand that is fairly well limited, and I can see considerable merit in being able to use our below-game cue bids to establish how well the hands fit.

2. 4, because even opposite Kxxx AQxx Kxxx x a trump led will usually beat 6. Isn't this why we play limited splinters?

3. Pass. I don't think this is close to a bid.

4. A poor hand for the methods, which have made it impossible to limit our hand. There isn't really any alternative to 4, because we could have so much more and still have bid the same way.

4 over 3 would have shown a bad hand that knew it wanted to play in hearts, but the slower sequence doesn't promise a better hand. With xxxx KT xxxx xxx, I can't think of any alternative to 3 and then 4. For that matter, with xxxx xx xxxx xxx I can't think of any alternative to 3 and then 4.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#9 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 17:25

1. I'm going to make a move here, and I prefer 4. What I really need from pard is great trump, and that hand last trains over 4. I'm concerned pard goes nuts over 4 with AKxx xx AKJxxx x. Clearly I covers in two of the three non-spade suits, since pard is looking at some good trump.

2. 4 (last train) and pass 4. My experience is hands with minimum HCP and no wastage will make slam opposite a max splinter, but not necessarily a min.

3. Pass. Our 4th diamond is not valuable here. 4 usually shows a good 18-19, no stiff and a 5 losers. Axx KQxx AQxx Ax. Slam is unplayable opposite this in spite of no wastage in clubs.

4. Pard is 6-5 and / two suiters that open 2 have the nuts. 5 for me. I think with QJ9x of clubs that we are too good for 4.
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#10 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-November-15, 22:35

A correction and a comment:

On the first, I misread the auction. I would NOT bid 4; I would also bid 4, as a cue. 4, IMO, is wrong, because I have a diamond card.

As to the Kokish auction, I remain firmly of the position that 3 agrees hearts, even though 3 would be the first chance to bid diamonds naturally. So what if 3 is the first chance to bid diamonds naturally? If I don't have heart support (meaning, at most two hearts), and I don't have five spades, and I don't have four clubs, then I have at least four diamonds. I can live with bidding diamonds when I have 4243 shape more than I can live with 3 being some sort of BS hedge bid.
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#11 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-November-16, 05:05

rogerclee, on Nov 15 2008, 07:14 AM, said:

All of these hands are MP:

1) Jxxx AJx Qx xxxx. 1D from pard, 1S by you, 4C from pard (splinter). BID? (if so what?)

2) Ax Kxxxx Ax xxxx. 1H from you, 4C (splinter) from pard which has a max of 13 HCP. BID? (if so what?)

3) Jxxx Axxx KJxx x. 1D from pard, 1H by you, 4H from pard. BID? (if so what?)

4) xx 9xxx Qxx QJ9x. 2C from pard, 2D by you (waiting, not positive or negative), 2H kokish by pard, 2S forced by you, 3C by pard (H+C). 3H by you, 4C from pard. BID? (if so what).

Also, in hand 4 do you think 3H then 4H by you would show extras since you didn't jump to 4H the first time, or could 3H then 4H sequence be a doubleton like xxxx KT xxxx xxx (perhaps with a small club being a small diamond).

1. 5, asking for trumps. This is the time for making decisions, not passing the ball and muddying the waters.

2. A straight 6. Has chances.

3. If 4 is the 18-19 balanced hand with hearts, there may be a slam. But pards never seem to come up with that hand, so I'll just bite it and pass. Besides, even if he does have such a hand, evaluating the club wastage is very, very se we should pass anyway.

4. What's 3 anyway? If it's weakish, I'll bid 5 now. If it's just fit-showing, I'll stick to 4 now.

As to the final question, if 3 is game forcing, then a straight 4 is the obvious bid. We will cooperate if pard bids over that, but only then. As for supporting hearts with Hx... ugh :rolleyes:
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-November-16, 05:20

Another possible solution to the Kokish problem is to make use of some of responder's other actions after 2-2; 2. Something like this:

2 = Fewer than 3 hearts, or a double negative, or a positive
3 = Semi-positive, 3+ hearts, and a hand that would bid Stayman opposite the balanced hand. With the balanced hand opener responds to Stayman; with hearts he bids 3NT or higher
3 = Semi-positive, 5+ hearts. With a balanced hand opener completes; with hearts he does something else
3 = Semi-positive, 3 hearts and 5+ spades. With a balanced hand opener completes; with hearts he does something else
3 = Semi-positive, 3 hearts, no major-suit interest opposite the balanced hand.

This does have the disadvantage of giving information to the defenders that may help them with the lead, but the compensation of increased accuracy is probably worth it. To limit the damage, it probably works best if you play 2-2; 2NT as the weaker balanced hand. Then the leakage of information will occur only when you have extra values.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-18, 00:58

1 - 4 (but I sign off opposite a mediocre partner since some people think a cuebid after a splinter is auto transfer to blackwood, forgetting they have already shown a good hand.)
2 - 4. Kxxx Axxxx Kxxx - one time!!!
3 - 5, surely good enough.
4 - 4 for consistency. No jk, it's cheap and our hand might be gold.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#14 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2008-November-18, 02:36

1-4 is obvious but over 4H (denial) ill just bid 4S.

2- 4H hoping partner got

AQ KQJ in a pointed suit seems like a lot to ask. Where i live we dont splinter with a reasonnable 5 cards suit on the side.

3-5C again obvious signing off is just terrible.

4- 4H I already showned a cover card by bidding 3H instead of 4H. So i have no extras. Its possible to see the 4th trumps as a Q but i dont like it.


Edited for 3... If 4H show 18-19 balanced I pass and change my method afterwards. so its not obvious after all.
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#15 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2008-November-18, 09:04

1: I will co-operate in case pard does have AKQx of trumps. If I cue bid H he will know what to do looking at those trumps, and that is what you need for slam if a stiff C.

2: I am along for the ride again 4D.

3: Pass.

4: I do not quite see that my hand is so great. I see 2S losers in my hand and no reason to push us beyond comfort level.
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#16 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-November-18, 20:23

Results:

1) I cuebid 4H, partner bid keycard: AKQx Kxx AKxxx x. Presumably whatever move you make will get you to slam. Didn't think this was really close as to whether to move or not, but wasn't sure which move people would like.

2) I cuebid 4D, but I really think 4H is right in retrospect. At the table my thoughts were that a 5th trump with partner, or a club void with partner, would both be great and might produce slam. However, with maximum hands that have 4 trumps and 1 club that are probably going to move over 4D, we usually won't have good play for slam. Kxxx AQJx Kxxx x is not even a good slam on a non trump lead. On that note, I think even the HT could sway me, because if we ever get to ruff 3 clubs it might give us some extra chances to pull trumps if there's stiff jack of hearts, or partner might have the jack of hearts himself. Anyways, I thought this was a really tough one.

3) On this one I felt like I was worth a move, maybe this is influenced by my thinking that balanced 18s and 19s almost always bid 3H, with the exception of really prime ones like Phil mentioned. I thought a likely hand type for partner was 2452 with 19-21. Another possibility seemed like a strong hand with stiff spade K (depending on your view, but I think it's mainstream not to splinter in stiff K on this auction, maybe not?). I chose to move with 5D. In retrospect after reading hte posts maybe a pass is better.

4) This is the only one where I really felt much differently than most people. I felt like our hand was huge, even if the DQ was not working (which it might be but probably rates not to be) our 4th trump is very big and our club fillers are very big. Bidding 4D seemed like a stand out action to me. Partner's actual hand was Ax AKJxx A AKxxx, and I think this is pretty typical of a hand that partner cannot move over our 4H bid with where slam is excellent. In fact, having shown no values and not shown much of a fit, I cannot imagine partner moving very often at all over our 4H bid. Our hand is so much better than it could be that I really feel like we owe partner a move.
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#17 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2008-November-18, 21:40

rogerclee, on Nov 15 2008, 02:14 AM, said:

All of these hands are MP:

1) Jxxx AJx Qx xxxx. 1D from pard, 1S by you, 4C from pard (splinter). BID? (if so what?)

2) Ax Kxxxx Ax xxxx. 1H from you, 4C (splinter) from pard which has a max of 13 HCP. BID? (if so what?)

3) Jxxx Axxx KJxx x. 1D from pard, 1H by you, 4H from pard. BID? (if so what?)

4) xx 9xxx Qxx QJ9x. 2C from pard, 2D by you (waiting, not positive or negative), 2H kokish by pard, 2S forced by you, 3C by pard (H+C). 3H by you, 4C from pard. BID? (if so what).

Also, in hand 4 do you think 3H then 4H by you would show extras since you didn't jump to 4H the first time, or could 3H then 4H sequence be a doubleton like xxxx KT xxxx xxx (perhaps with a small club being a small diamond).

Assuming I have the honor to play a round with Roger with little discussion beyond 2/1.
1) 4d
2) 4h If we miss low point slam blame me.
3) 5d not stopping below 6h. ( I would fall back on 4s as kickback if we play that)
4) abstain, do not play any of this.
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#18 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2008-November-19, 01:51

rogerclee, on Nov 19 2008, 04:23 AM, said:

2) I cuebid 4D, but I really think 4H is right in retrospect. At the table my thoughts were that a 5th trump with partner, or a club void with partner, would both be great and might produce slam. However, with maximum hands that have 4 trumps and 1 club that are probably going to move over 4D, we usually won't have good play for slam. Kxxx AQJx Kxxx x is not even a good slam on a non trump lead.

On that hand, partner has an obvious 4-call on a 4 bid. He has already shown his hand. He may be maximum point wise, but trick-producing wise he is a dead minimum. The J may actually be worthless.

Give opener the same hand with 3-4-5-1 and you can even remove the J, and slam will be resonable.

Make it 2-4-6-1 and slam is excellent.
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Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


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#19 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-November-19, 07:06

On the last one, partner held ♠Ax ♥AKJxx ♦A ♣AKxxx, a huge hand.

The problem with this kind of question is that no one knows Opener's style. In my analysis, 4 was a terrible call, because of how I bid these hands. That would deny a spade control and might look more like ♠Qx ♥AKJxx ♦A ♣AKQxx.

With the actual hand, as Opener, I would bid 3, which allows a lot of nice things. First, if Responder has the trump Queen, he can cue that by bidding 3NT; not cuebidding 3NT would suggest a quick heart loser. If partner does not have the trump Queen, he could cue 4 to show me the club Queen, a call that wildly increases my comfort about relying upon a heart finesse or a spade card showing up.

4 by Opener, in contrast, leaves only one call -- an ambiguous 4 -- for Responder to show generalized interest. That's a bad thing. Cramping of space for the weaker hand to describe things seems best suited for hands with a specific message, such as "I have no spade control."
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#20 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:44

Hand 4 for is a bit complicated without discussions.

Over 3C what is the waiting bid ? For me its 100% clear that 3D is a punt and that 3H show 3H and a cover card with a fit and no cover i bid 4H. So holding all the 6 keycard i would surely go on after 4H. Also on a S lead slam is less than 55% so i would like to be in 6 but i wont cry if im in 4.

2ndly once a fit as been established are you in cue-bids mode or are you in shape-showing mode. Also what would have been the meaning of 4C over the forced 2S.

If 4C is a 55-65 than 4C should mainly ask for a S control.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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