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Double by 1NT opener sanity check

Poll: What's this double? (47 member(s) have cast votes)

What's this double?

  1. Obviously should be takeout (38 votes [80.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.85%

  2. Obviously should be penalty (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Should have the same meaning as responder's double of 2D (5 votes [10.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.64%

  4. Either meaning is reasonable, unrelated to meaning of responder's X (3 votes [6.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.38%

  5. Should not exist (1 votes [2.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.13%

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#1 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 11:25

I'm interested in this auction:

1NT - (2♦ natural) - Pass - Pass - X

What should opener's double mean? Does it depend on what responder's double of 2♦ would have been? Obviously this is a matter of partnership agreement, but some agreements might be unreasonable....
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#2 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 11:47

I vote for almost "same meaning as responder's double." As if responder's double is penalty, then a penalty double by opener is non-existent.

However, if responder's double is takeout, so is opener's.
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#3 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 11:49

Hi,

the meaning of responders double is important,
if responders double would be for t/o, than opener
is forced to reopen.

If it would be optional / penalty, most likely t/o makes
more sense, but ...

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#4 User is offline   Lobowolf 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 11:52

Takeout, because the doubler is in front of the bidder.

1NT-P-P-2♦ (natural);
X

would be penalty, conversely; opener in that case could have a decent stack of minor honors and quite a few outside quick tricks.
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#5 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 11:55

All these doubles should be takeout, it's very obvious to me.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#6 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 11:58

Takeout. 1NT bidder can hardly ever have a penalty double: opponents may have 24 hcp as far as he knows, and given his balanced hand he would usually need 5 trumps to double.

If responder's double is penalty, then responder could still have takeout shape, so a takeout double by opener seems even more important.
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#7 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 12:19

X = Mind check your collection pls p? :)

It's not penalty seat - competitive
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#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 15:27

jdonn, on Nov 10 2008, 06:55 PM, said:

All these doubles should be takeout, it's very obvious to me.

Agree 100%
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#9 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 15:38

Free, on Nov 10 2008, 04:27 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 10 2008, 06:55 PM, said:

All these doubles should be takeout, it's very obvious to me.

Agree 100%

It's ok to play penalty doubles behind the bidder. We do that even with our 12-14 notrumps!

In front of the bidder it surely should be takeout.
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#10 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 16:22

Sure seems like an obvious takeout to me. There's no hand where I'd ever want to penalty double this- surely if I had 5 diamonds, they'd have a place to run to!
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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2008-November-11, 01:57

MFA, on Nov 10 2008, 10:38 PM, said:

Free, on Nov 10 2008, 04:27 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 10 2008, 06:55 PM, said:

All these doubles should be takeout, it's very obvious to me.

Agree 100%

It's ok to play penalty doubles behind the bidder. We do that even with our 12-14 notrumps!

In front of the bidder it surely should be takeout.

I've also thought about this years ago. However this is a foolish style, and I'll explain why.

Your partner can also Dbl. Using the style you mention, in an auction 1NT-(2♦)-... partner has a penalty double, while you have a takeout double. And guess what: usually you both would double in such a situation (because partner is long, opener is short). Similar if it's the other way around, or if the auction goes 1NT-(p)-p-(2♦)-...

So you lose options playing this style, while either penalty doubles for both players, or takeout doubles (best imo) for both players have more possibilities.
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