[Quantumcat]

In a recent bidding forum, a hand something like this was opened 1S:

AQxxx
-
xxx
AJxxx

Partner responded 2D and then the problem was your rebid. A couple of people complained about the opening bid, saying they would have opened 1C.

My understanding was that you ALWAYS bid the higher ranked suit first, so that if you open say a heart and then bid diamonds twice, that can be a 5/5, but opening diamonds and bidding hearts twice shows a 6/5.

Is it standard that there is a particular exception for when it's clubs and spades? Is it only for weak hands? Or would a stronger (HCP) 5/5 open a spade (presumably because they can make a game-forcing 3C after 2S or 2H)?

And ... does rebidding spades ALWAYS show 6? It can't really ... I mean in 2/1 if you open 1S with AQxxx x Axxx Kxx and p responds 2H, you have to bid 2S, don't you?

[han]

It used to be quite common to open 1C with 5-5 in the blacks, but these days you'll find few experts who do so. The modern style is to open the higher ranking suit with equal length. If you play this then it is as you say, if you open clubs and then rebid twice a higher ranking suit then you show 5-6.

The rebid after 1S-2H is a matter of system and agreements.

[the hog]

In the bidding forum you spoke of, US expert bob Jones objected to the 1S opening bid. He is pretty much on his own with this view. as stated above, most experts will open 1S - get that Major in!. Hence a 2S rebid does not have to promise 6 cards.

[Quantumcat]

Ok thanks for that. In the readers' section, there were three or four people objecting.

[matmat]

The_Hog, on Nov 4 2008, 12:04 AM, said:

In the bidding forum you spoke of, US expert bob Jones objected to the 1S opening bid. He is pretty much on his own with this view. as stated above, most experts will open 1S - get that Major in!. Hence a 2S rebid does not have to promise 6 cards.

I'm fairly sure that JEC opens 1♣ on black 55s.

[mike777]

Quantumcat, on Nov 3 2008, 10:12 PM, said:

In a recent bidding forum, a hand something like this was opened 1S:

AQxxx
-
xxx
AJxxx

Partner responded 2D and then the problem was your rebid. A couple of people complained about the opening bid, saying they would have opened 1C.

My understanding was that you ALWAYS bid the higher ranked suit first, so that if you open say a heart and then bid diamonds twice, that can be a 5/5, but opening diamonds and bidding hearts twice shows a 6/5.

Is it standard that there is a particular exception for when it's clubs and spades? Is it only for weak hands? Or would a stronger (HCP) 5/5 open a spade (presumably because they can make a game-forcing 3C after 2S or 2H)?

And ... does rebidding spades ALWAYS show 6? It can't really ... I mean in 2/1 if you open 1S with AQxxx x Axxx Kxx and p responds 2H, you have to bid 2S, don't you?

i guess pass was not an option with this hand.....If so then partner knows I can have junk so.....


3d now over 2d.........I got my junky bid.


3d=3 small diamonds and can be 11 hcp and junk.

" I mean in 2/1 if you open 1S with AQxxx x Axxx Kxx and p responds 2H, you have to bid 2S, don't you? "



With this hand I must rebid 3d......1s=2h=3d...I assume 3d can show 11 hcp and this junk.

I Assume we do not rebid 2s with 5 spades and junk.
I assume partner does not bid 2h on junk but on 14 hcp.
Otherwise I assume I am allowed to pass this hand in first or second seat.

[Codo]

Mike I guess you view is getting less popular during the years. I am quite sure that more and more players do rebid 2 Spade with 5 spade and junk- they are happy to have 3 Diamond as a raise avaiable, which shows a good hand.

[Walddk]

With a minimum hand and therefore not strong enough to reverse into 3♣ over a 2♦ or 2♥ response, I think 1♣ should be preferred. Then you get two suits in at the 1-level instead of concealing the second suit.

1♠ - 2♥
2♠

is not exactly a great description of hand with 5-5 in the black suits.

--

1♣ - 1♥
1♠ - 2♦
2♠

We are still at the 2-level, and now responder knows about at least 10 cards.

I know that some subscribe to the theory that if you don't open 1M, then you don't have five of them. I don't agree with them. In my view you have when one suit is longer, and if 5-5 in the blacks and a minimum.

Roland

[Edmunte1]

1♠ is my choice and i believe that's the better way. Why?
Usually in process of biding, when you open there are 3 important goals:
1- describing your hand accurately - so you can reach the contract with the best potential for a positive score;
2- describying your hand fastly - so you can reach faster your contract and shut your opponents off from their possible better score;
3- occupying the bidding space - making opponents lose their accuracy in bidding or even cutting them off from bidding.

I agree that opening 1♣ makes you describe more acuratelly sometimes, but also lets opponents into action. Over 1♣ you'll see a lot of 1♥/1♦ overcalls, but over 1♠ the number of overcalls will be drastically reduced. Also the number of overcalls after 1♣-(pass)-1red is bigger than for example 1♠-2♠ or 1♠-1nt.

I agree that after a positive 2♦ response you'll lose some accuracy, but we can recover that loss by using some decent methods (like rebiding 2♠ to show a minimum hand, and rebid 3♣ over partner's forcing 2nt, or switching 2♥ and [2sp] responses over 1♠-2♦ - trying to regain some space).

In bridge you should compare the gains and losses of your methods over a big number of boards. Maybe you'll lose on board like this but definitelly you'll be better placed in all competitive boards when partner has spade fit. Comparing with chess 1♠ opening is like a d2-d4 move, and 1♣ is like a d2-d3 move

[helene_t]

I think it is almost universal among SA players nowadays to describe the weak 5-5 by
1♠-2♥
2♠-2NT
3♣

This 3♣ can be passed in SAYC. 2♠ was forcing for one round but is generally used with weak hands. Of course if 2♥ created a game force, or if 2NT did so, 3♣ cannot be passed.

In SAYC, I think 3♣ shows five clubs - with only four clubs a minimum opener would pass 2NT. If 2NT is forcing, 3♣ does not need to show five IMO.

If responder does not bid 2NT at his second turn, you will never get to show your clubs I think. It may go
1♠-2♥
2♠-3♦
3NT

or
1♠-2♥
2♠-3♥
pass (assuming we play SAYC or Lawrence style or something so 3♥ is non-forcing).

[hotShot]

helene_t, on Nov 5 2008, 04:50 PM, said:

I think it is almost universal among SA players nowadays to describe the weak 5-5 by
1♠-2♥
2♠-2NT
3♣

I would have expected 6-4 and not 5-5 after this.

[han]

I agree with Roland that opening 1C works out fine or even better when the opponents remain silent, but I think that it doesn't work as well in the real world. 1S makes it much harder for the opponents and if they start to bid, at least we were able to mention our most important suit.

Therefore I think it is best to always open your highest ranking suit when you are 5-5 and to agree that an auction like 1C-1H-1S-2H-2S shows 5-6 in the blacks.

[jdonn]

I think 1♣ is pretty much discredited among most serious players these days, and for good reason in my opinion.

On the actual hand I would stretch to rebid 3♣ with my fantastic shape.

[Walddk]

jdonn, on Nov 5 2008, 06:31 PM, said:

On the actual hand I would stretch to rebid 3♣ with my fantastic shape.

What would you rebid if the response is 2♥?

Roland

[jdonn]

Walddk, on Nov 5 2008, 11:34 AM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 5 2008, 06:31 PM, said:

On the actual hand I would stretch to rebid 3♣ with my fantastic shape.

What would you rebid if the response is 2♥?

Roland

2♠ of course.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Just one comment:

In the French standard system, and for that matter
in the German standard system, the systemic opening
with 5-5 in clubs and spades is clubs.

As always, this style has + and -, if you know how to
benefit from the choosen style you will be ok.

I would open 1S, I prefer to be able to show 5 cards
instead of only 3 with my first bid, and it does not
hurt to tell partner at once, that we have the spades,
but there are certain downsides as well, e.g. I may
have trouble showing my 2nd suit.

E.g. in the sequence

1S .... - 1NT (1)
2C (2) - ...

(1) Forcing
(2) could be as short as 3 cards, some even bid
2C with only 2 cards, balance shape still
possible

Comparing this with the sequence

1C ... - ???
1S (1) -

(1) unbalanced

I may have only shown 8 cards, maybe only 7,
instead of 8 or 9, and it is not clear if opener is
balanced or unbalanced.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pirate22]

Vulnerbility is important, not mentioned however this maybe our hand ,invite opps in open 1cl-if next hand passes and pard responds any,next opp comes in or not ,the hand is yours, bid 1spade-still no opposition pard responds any,so rebid 2 spades-pard will understand you must have 5 spades and a min opener,otherwise one would open 1 spade and rebid clubs,now if opps get busy over 1cl,your pard will help,and one can think of a reasonable sacrifice if they get to 4 hts say,and if opps in 5 diamonds ,still good prospects
regards pirate