[gdawg01]

Hi all!

I have a fairly basic question.

Can someone tell me some methods that people use in SAYC or 2/1 to find out the length of the responder's major?

A standard auction I am looking for help with is :

1C - P - 1H or 1C - P - 1S and similarly after an opening bid of 1D.


Thanks!

Girish

[helene_t]

If responder has a five-card, he assumes captaincy so he can inquire about opener's length to find a fit.

After opener rebids 1NT, responder can use New Minor Forcing (NMF) (or a natural reverse of jump shift) to ask for 3-card support. After opener rebids a new suit, responder can use Fourth Suit Forcing (FSF) to ask for 3-card support.

But if responder has a six-card suit, he will usually show that so that opener can make a decision. He does that by using NMF or FSF to create a force and then bidding his suit again.

[han]

You are asking the wrong question. Don't try to ask what responder has. Bid your own hand instead.

[gdawg01]

Thanks, helene...Googling NMF gives answers to my questions.

[gdawg01]

han,


Sounds good but ..if I have 3 of the major bid by responder and he does have a game-going hand, isn't it important to find out if he has 4 or 5, since that will decide whether playing 3N or 4M is better? Quite possibly I am missing something here!

Thanks,
-G

[jdonn]

gdawg01, on Nov 5 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

han,


Sounds good but ..if I have 3 of the major bid by responder and he does have a game-going hand, isn't it important to find out if he has 4 or 5, since that will decide whether playing 3N or 4M is better? Quite possibly I am missing something here!

Thanks,
-G

I think what he is saying is that if you have four you raise, if you have three and a balanced hand you usually bid 1NT and if PARTNER has five he can ask how many YOU have. But in all this, it's not as though you are asking partner how many he has, you are bidding your hand and letting the auction develope.

[han]

gdawg01, on Nov 5 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

han,


Sounds good but ..if I have 3 of the major bid by responder and he does have a game-going hand, isn't it important to find out if he has 4 or 5, since that will decide whether playing 3N or 4M is better? Quite possibly I am missing something here!

Thanks,
-G

No, it is the wrong question. It isn't you who has to find out how many spades partner has when you have 3 of them. Instead, when partner has 5 spades he should find out how many spades you have.

Indeed, NMF helps with this. Note that NMF doesn't show 5 spades, but it enables you to show 3.

What I am saying here may seem like nitpicking but I think that is an important way to think about bidding.

[gdawg01]

jdonn and han :

Ahh, ok, got it now. I should go look at NMF again, from this angle!

Thanks,
-G

[gdawg01]

Another q : What if opener is not balanced and cannot rebid 1N? Say 1-3-3-6 so he/she rebids 2C. Is there still a way for responder to find out whether opener has 3 card support for the major?

Thanks..

[gdawg01]

Sorry, was probably being dumb there. Responder can then bid 2D I suppose. So if major suit is spades, I guess opener can bid 2H to deny 3 and 2S to show 3 ? If the major suit is hearts, it looks like 2S would deny 3...

[helene_t]

gdawg01, on Nov 5 2008, 06:07 PM, said:

Another q : What if opener is not balanced and cannot rebid 1N? Say 1-3-3-6 so he/she rebids 2C. Is there still a way for responder to find out whether opener has 3 card support for the major?

Thanks..

If responder makes a forcing second bid, opener's first priority is now to show three-card support:
1♣-1♥
2♣-2♦*
2♥
* many play 2♦ as "new minor forcing" here. Even if you don't have that agreement, you may still make this bid on a fake diamond suit, just to bid something forcing.

1♦-1♥
2♦-2♠*
3♥
* Opener already denied four spades, so this 2♠ bid should not be seen as an attempt to find a spade fit. However, without specific agreements I would expect responder to have a spade stopper. Anyway, opener's first priority is to show 3-card hearts support.

1♦-1♥
2♦-3♣*
3♥
* Opener will rarely have four clubs since he bypassed 2♣. So 3♣ should show a club stopper but also suggest five hearts. Therefore, opener must bid 3♥ if he has three of them.

[awm]

It may also be worth mentioning that many of us will occasionally raise responder's major holding only three-card support. This is most frequent when holding a side singleton. For example:

♠x
♥Axx
♦Kxx
♣AJxxxx

After opening 1♣ and hearing 1♥ from partner, I and many others bid 2♥. Even if this is only a 4-3 fit, we can make lots of tricks by trumping spades in my hand. My club suit is mediocre and I am not eager to play in clubs opposite a singleton or small doubleton in any case.

For this reason, it is also useful to have a way for responder to find out how many trumps opener has after a raise. In this situation many people actually use a specific asking bid (normally the cheapest bid over 2M is the ask) after which opener describes his hand further.

Alternatively you can just keep the three-card-raise possibility in mind, make a natural bid over the raise, and expect that with four-card-support opener will bid the major again next whereas with three-card support he will make some other call (i.e. bid notrump or rebid the suit he opened).

[gdawg01]

Helene, thanks! What would opener's bid of 2H show in auction 1?

awm : I see the idea behind the 3 card raise but this does assume partner's hearts are good enough that he can draw trumps, doesn't it? You mention the idea of finding out how many trumps opener has after the raise has been made by using the cheapest bid over 2M. What are the responses to this? I assume a rebid of 3M by opener in response would show 4 cards in support..

[lexlogan]

gdawg01, on Nov 5 2008, 05:56 PM, said:

awm : I see the idea behind the 3 card raise but this does assume partner's hearts are good enough that he can draw trumps, doesn't it? You mention the idea of finding out how many trumps opener has after the raise has been made by using the cheapest bid over 2M. What are the responses to this? I assume a rebid of 3M by opener in response would show 4 cards in support..

Opener does not assume responder's hearts are "good enough to draw trumps". He assumes responder's hand, including his trumps, are good enough to have a play for 8 tricks. Sometimes this will involve drawing trumps and sometimes not. If responder has enough to bid or try for game but has only 4 trumps, he need not insist on the major suit -- he can bid 2NT, opener's suit, show values in a third suit, etc. If such bids suggest a better contract than 4 of the major to opener, he can accept game by bidding, for example, 3NT. So you might have an auction like 1D-1H-2H-2NT-3NT, and responder can choose between 3NT and 4H depending (in part) on his trump holding.

Of course, if opener has raised on 4 trumps, he should almost always insist on the major: 1D-1H-2H-2NT-3H or 4H, depending on his strength.

The 2NT bid as commomly played is not an asking bid; it is not even forcing. But such bidding enables the partnership to choose sensibly between 3NT, 4H, and possibly other contracts such as 5 of opener's minor.

[helene_t]

gdawg01, on Nov 5 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

Helene, thanks! What would opener's bid of 2H show in auction 1?

Oops typo, I meant to write 2♥. Discuss with partner if this shows three hearts. If 2♦ is natural, a case could be made for 2♥ merely being a preference which could be made on a doubleton.

[fromageGB]

Maybe I'm a bit out of line bringing in something new here, but all the above posts (and they contain good solid advice) hinge upon responder being strong enough to make a bid that is at least game invitational strength. When he is that strong, then yes, the various methods do allow the major fit, or the lack of it, to be found.

But there are many hands, more in fact, where responder is not strong enough to make a forcing bid. What do you do now? This is where standard methods come unstuck, and someone invented the "transfer Walsh" style of responses. Playing this way, responder gives up the ability to bid a natural 1♦ in response to a 1♣ open (he can recover that bid by other means) and instead plays transfer responses, so 1♦ shows 4 or more hearts, and 1♥ shows 4 or more spades.

Now opener can show whether he has 2-, 3, or 4 of the major.

If he has 2 or fewer of the major, he makes whatever rebid he would naturally. From here the bidding progresses normally, but responder will not "repeat" a 5 card suit.

If he has 3 of the major, he completes the transfer at the one level. This is absolutely forcing and is unlimited. If responder has only 4, there is no fit, so he simply rebids 1NT or 2♣ or whatever. If he has 5, he can bid 2M with a weak hand, and you have found the 5/3 fit.

If opener has 4 of the major he completes the transfer with a jump (or a stronger bid). This is in effect the same as supporting a natural major to the 2 level.

With these methods, the major fit is found even with weak hands. The "unwanted" response of 1♠ can be used for whatever the partnership decides. Mine use it for a transfer to 1NT, which in turn leaves the 1NT response to show a weak hand with 4/4 in both majors. This is the ideal bid for when 4th seat comes in with a 2♣/♦ overcall. Without this special 1NT response you would lose a possible 4/4 major fit. With a natural 1♣ (p) 1♥ (2♦) opener cannot bid 2♠ unless he is strong.

By using the transfer to 1NT, you can follow it up with other bids to show different sorts of hands.