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Foresight Card play

Poll: Trick two ? (10 member(s) have cast votes)

Trick two ?

  1. Trump K and 2 more trumps (3 votes [30.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

  2. Low spade (6 votes [60.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

  3. Low heart, then finesse for Queen (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Low trump (1 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  5. Other (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 04:45

Scoring: MP

Your side landed 6 ♣ in a good day and ♦J led won by Q. Yet you only know W overcalled One ♠.


Could you please post any ending to bring the contract home?

Thanks :P
Hamdi
We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak. Quoted by Albert Einstein.
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#2 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 07:24

Double-dummy, I only see one way to make, but that line is anti-percentage.

I think both reasonable lines involve playing clubs for 3/2, and I think the heart finesse is superior to playing diamonds to be 3/3.

I guess the question is how much the spade overcall gives away. It seems to me to be entirely plausible that RHO could have the heart queen (especially given the vulnerability). Granted, the first trick seems to imply that LHO isn't short in diamonds, so if he's short anywhere, clubs would be a good guess.

Still, is it enough to endanger the high percentage line? It doesn't feel like it to me, but maybe the experts will have more to say.

V
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
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#3 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 11:23

Not sure if you want a double-dummy solution or single, but since W failed to lead the KQ of spades and since our Q♦ won the first trick, it's pretty easy to place W with the heart honor and one of the spades. With one diamond pitch eventually on the J♥, it's just a question of handling the 4-1 break if we have a trump loser.

It's an easier problem if we assume we can peek at the 4-1 break and give up the known trump loser on the 2nd round of clubs to avoid having to make pitches from the dummy too early, but I'll try to solve it in the case we test for the 3-2 break first.

Answer below since B/I
Spoiler

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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 12:47

Don't need a squeeze I think, only a trump coup.

Spade to ace.
club to king.
ruff a spade.
club ace getting the bad news.
heart finesse.
heart king pitching diamond.
ruff third round of spades.
diamond to ace.
Lead a major suit card, pitch the losing diamond if east ruffs.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   vuroth 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 14:23

han, on Nov 4 2008, 01:47 PM, said:

Don't need a squeeze I think, only a trump coup.

After diamond to the ace



I couldn't see it, but I do now. Neat.
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.

"gwnn" said:

rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
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#6 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 15:09

Thanks all.

I think low trump to hand at trick two also works. Cash Spade A, back to table with another low trump, then spade ruff transposes etc etc.

I know this technique as "coup en passant" -> inescapable trump loser. Most trump coups rather different.

Am I wrong?

Sincerely
Hamdi

ps. 1)Hopefully it wuz fun. 2) "Intermediate when I count. Novice when I get lazy." I liked it Vuroth, sometimes need more counting as you might knew well :) - Regards
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#7 User is offline   bid_em_up 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 15:18

And if East pitches his diamond instead of ruffing?
Is the word "pass" not in your vocabulary?
So many experts, not enough X cards.
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#8 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 15:33

bid_em_up, on Nov 4 2008, 03:18 PM, said:

And if East pitches his diamond instead of ruffing?

Then you ruff (low!).
Isn't this called an elopement, rather than a trump coup, btw?
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#9 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-November-04, 15:46

Thanks "cherdano". Indeed nice spot.

I just surfed and found it :

http://homepage.mac..../Elopement.html

I lub this game

Regards
Hamdi
We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak. Quoted by Albert Einstein.
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#10 User is offline   el tombo 

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Posted 2008-November-08, 06:13

I thought an elopement was where you have a trump loser and 3 side suit losers (for example), needing 10 tricks, but you ruff with your small trumps so that you make 10 tricks and they end up having to ruff one of their partner's tricks. I may be wrong.

I read that this play was called a "coup en passent" in Andrew Robson's book of Endplays and Squeezes
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#11 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-November-08, 06:19

Hi,

Thank you very much El Tombo.

A. Robson, Di Lauria, Chagas are still my idols. (No doubt other World Class Category members esteemed).


I will surf and hope to find a link to buy that book.

Regards
Hamdi
We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak. Quoted by Albert Einstein.
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#12 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-November-08, 09:40

I'm not so sure that there is really much difference between an "elopement" and a "coup en passant," except that perhaps the latter in an example of the former or that the former is a less-known term.

In any event, this is a great example hand to illustrate how "good technique" pays off. Reading and Practice suggests certain things without having to think through the entire hand, sometimes.

When this dummy hits the table, as Han said, your major concern should be diamonds, of course, but trumps splitting 4-1 should be the obvious "other issue." The solution in diamonds comes quickly -- take two finesses. That seems as good as anything. Let's suppose, however, that no quick soluton for trumps appears.

Good technique arises from studying and remembering that trump coups do exist and that one key is to "not having too many trumps." Also, if you know that Vienna Coups exist, you know that stiff Aces cause problems.

So, when everything looks good to go, you take that extra step of crossing to the spade Ace at trick two. Why? You are clearing the "stiff Ace problem" because maybe there is a Vienna Coup somewhere and you are setting up a ruff of that troubling "having too many trumps." You have no idea, perhaps, whether any of this will matter, but somehow each seems in play. Heck, maybe the fourth diamond somehow can be pitched on the spade Jack...

Anyway, when you cross to dummy, as Han said, and ruff the spade to play a second high trump, now the problem hits you. With fewer cards left, seeing the trump coup is easier, somehow, and you then are prepared to pull it off because of the prep work.

Here's the funny thing, Part II. Suppose clubs had split 3-2 after all. You'd have six clubs, one spade, two diamonds, and two hearts, for starters, or 11 tricks. After hooking the heart for the 12th trick, you could ruff the spade, eliminating RHO's Queen, and then run down all of the clubs to squeeze LHO if he had held four diamonds and five spades. (The heart Queen would have just dropped out.) There are many other permutations where playing the spade Ace early and ruffing a spade helps to maybe make all 13 tricks or to perhaps recover if the heart hook fails or to avoid the hook or whatever.
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#13 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-November-08, 11:06

Elopement has more than connotations than en passant. Adventures in Card Play has a whole chapter on it.

En passant is also called "coup d'agonie" in a Reese book.
"Phil" on BBO
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#14 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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  Posted 2008-November-08, 14:19

Just surfed and reached "coup de agonie" - page 51:

Playing with the Bridge Legends
Barnet Shenkin
also Zia Mahmood, Michael Rosenberg
Master Point Press, 2000
ISBN 1894154215, 9781894154215
235 pages


If this forum would not exists, also this members would not post their remarks I would have no idea about such nice articles. IMHO worths to study every link about "coup en passant-elopement-coup de agonie". It will surely take a lot of my time to exercise.

For that reason I extend my most ardent thanks to all participants.

Very well done.

Regards
Hamdi
We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak. Quoted by Albert Einstein.
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#15 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2008-November-09, 14:44

Richard Pavlicek has several examples of elopement plays on his site.

Try this google search:

elope site:rpbridge.net

Lot's of other good stuff there too. The defensive play contests and analyses are mind blowing.
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#16 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-November-10, 00:19

Hi,

I appreciate y66. Nice input.

Happy Bridging :unsure:

Hamdi
We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak. Quoted by Albert Einstein.
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