[the hog]

gwnn, on Nov 1 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

jjkl seriously have you read the opening post? Have you read the replies?

We disrespectful people who you wouldn't like to play with have said we would bid game because we know now about the 4-4 fit in hearts.

I suspect you did not read the post. Did you not see that 3D was non forcing and that means opener could pass it even with 4H?

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Nov 1 2008, 09:18 AM, said:

gwnn, on Nov 1 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

jjkl seriously have you read the opening post? Have you read the replies?

We disrespectful people who you wouldn't like to play with have said we would bid game because we know now about the 4-4 fit in hearts.

I suspect you did not read the post. Did you not see that 3D was non forcing and that means opener could pass it even with 4H?

Does it necessarily mean that?

The replies could be:
Pass - 3 hearts and minimum
3♥ - 4 hearts and minimum
Higher bids non-minima of various sorts.

[gwnn]

The_Hog, on Nov 1 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

gwnn, on Nov 1 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

jjkl seriously have you read the opening post? Have you read the replies?

We disrespectful people who you wouldn't like to play with have said we would bid game because we know now about the 4-4 fit in hearts.

I suspect you did not read the post. Did you not see that 3D was non forcing and that means opener could pass it even with 4H?

So what?!

[the hog]

gwnn, on Nov 1 2008, 05:17 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Nov 1 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

gwnn, on Nov 1 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

jjkl seriously have you read the opening post? Have you read the replies?

We disrespectful people who you wouldn't like to play with have said we would bid game because we know now about the 4-4 fit in hearts.

I suspect you did not read the post. Did you not see that 3D was non forcing and that means opener could pass it even with 4H?

So what?!

So you clearly shouldn't bid 4, thats "so what". You are playing with yourself and not with a partner.

[y66]

This game try sequence is per Washington Standard.

Opener can raise responder's one-level response with only three card support if opener has a ruffing value. Over opener's raise, responder has two questions: does opener have a minimum or a maximum; and does opener have three card support or four card support.

1D 1H 2H 2N and 1D 1H 2H 3D are non-forcing game tries. Opener is allowed to pass with a minimum with three hearts.

Sorry for the confusion.

[gwnn]

The_Hog, on Nov 1 2008, 12:55 PM, said:

gwnn, on Nov 1 2008, 05:17 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Nov 1 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

gwnn, on Nov 1 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

jjkl seriously have you read the opening post? Have you read the replies?

We disrespectful people who you wouldn't like to play with have said we would bid game because we know now about the 4-4 fit in hearts.

I suspect you did not read the post. Did you not see that 3D was non forcing and that means opener could pass it even with 4H?

So what?!

So you clearly shouldn't bid 4, thats "so what". You are playing with yourself and not with a partner.

If we're playing The Hog's system: he opened 1♦, I responded 1♥, he raised me to 2♥.

Now I know he usually has 4 diamonds and 3 or 4 hearts.

I tried 3♦, to tell him that I am happy to play here if he has 3 hearts or if he thinks that even though he has 4 hearts, we're surely not making game. However, he bid 3♥ to show his 4th heart and his opinion that hearts are a better strain than diamonds.

So I bid game, because I think the majority of his hands that fit his bidding make game good.

If we're playing y66's system, it's even clearer.

BTW this situation is analogous to

1NT-2♦; 2♥-2NT; 3♥-4♥ or
1NT-2♣; 2♥-2NT; 3♠-4♠

which are sequences that clearly exist.

[655321]

y66, on Nov 1 2008, 06:01 AM, said:

Over opener's raise, responder has two questions: does opener have a minimum or a maximum; and does opener have three card support or four card support.

1D 1H 2H 2N and 1D 1H 2H 3D are non-forcing game tries. Opener is allowed to pass with a minimum with three hearts.

Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, a lot of confusion, but not your fault - you explained things very clearly, more than once.

Auction A:
1♥   2♥
3♦   3♥
4♥

Auction B:
1♦   1♥
2♥   3♦
3♥   4♥

Auction (A) is not the same as Auction (B).

Auction (A), if we ignore for our purposes all slam tries, psyches, etc, and concentrate only on the case when Opener has an invitational hand, does not exist. If Opener A invites, and Responder A rejects the invitation, Opener A cannot logically do anything except Pass.

Auction (B) is quite different. It is possible for Responder B to have a hand that

• wants to be in 4H every time Opener has 4 hearts, but
  
  
• is happy to play 3D when Opener is minimum with 3 hearts.

So, when opener bids 3H, a 4H bid by responder is not the logical impossibility it was in auction A, but is the bid responder will make when he wants to be in game opposite all 4 card holdings.

Not sure why this is difficult. Perhaps some people misread the original post, concentrating on the (max, min) meaning of the 3D try, and overlooking the (3H, 4H) meaning.

OP was asking, it seems to me, whether the hand in question is suitable for bidding 4H whenever opener is known to have a 4 card suit.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Nov 1 2008, 01:25 AM, said:

mr1303, on Nov 1 2008, 12:59 AM, said:

If I was going to bid game, why did I bother making a game try?

Could not have said it better myself.

That's the point: apparently, we messed up the round before, so it's time to make up for it and bid 4♥.

Who knows, maybe opps think we're slammish and make a desperate lead that gives the game away?

[H_KARLUK]

I do not think my partner is blind. To my 3♦ he offered me to stop. I respect and pass.

[han]

Also disagree that bidding 3D followed by 4H is inconsistent. In general it makes perfect sense to want to play in 3D when partner has made a 3-card raise yet bid game when he has 4 hearts.