[Flame]

Hi misho
The point in the examples is to deliver a message, its best understand when you see an example, and those examples were ment to show why it is importent for the opener to know about a good 5 card side suit, which is a source of tricks.
From my expirence bidding slams is done best when you amagine or sometimes know where are the tricks going to come from, this is extremly true when talking about grands. counting tricks is easier when partner show his suit.
You can see many rookies bid slams after checking they got the necassary controls, so they are right , they dont have 2 quick losers, but sadly they dont have 12 winners either. for a slam you need a source of tricks.
In modern style cue bidding and other non natural bidding are used after a major suit fit is found, i play like that too, but i am not certain its better then a natural way. example 1sp-2sp-4c maybe this can be better to show a 5-5 hand then for splinter as most play it?

[inquiry]

Trpltrbl, on Apr 15 2004, 09:42 AM, said:

inquiry, on Apr 14 2004, 05:31 PM, said:

When I disagree with you I will tell you so... :-0, but FLAME is 100% right here, and the example hands illustrate the point nicely. Sorry mike, but this is clear.

Ben

You still agreeing 100% ?

Mike

I still agree with Flame, and disagree with you you.

Let me handle your "examples" and you 1000 imp lead. Where I disagreed with you was your statement earlier (not your latest statement), where you said...

Quote

I guess I stand alone, but we have at least a 9 card major suit fit. Why showing your own suit ? Is it going to do any good ? Not in my eyes, and pd will pretty much never expect 4 card support. Support with support and help pd out.

This statement from your early reply suggest you always raise with four card support..."to help your partner out"... Now you ahve jumped ship and state to example one by FLAME....

Quote

On first example most won't bid J2NT with 11 count, my wk NT pd and I play 2NT as Inv or better. But the question was for J2NT, so I will bid 2♣, a slight overbid maybe but with my good ♠ fit and 2 aces, I'll try game. I bid 3♣, pd will bid 3♠, and I will bid 4♦. Pd RKC and asking specific Kings and we get to 7♠.

Wow,,, you go from not bidding a side card suit with four card support to bidding a side suit with good four card support in less than one day. Seems you changed your mind very quickly aoubt helping partner out. I note another thing here. You also turned me on to ZAR points, and here you will "try for game" (I assume this means make a game try). But this responder hand is worth a lot of ZAR points, on its own it has 27 ZAR points, and in support of ♠, you get two more for AQ of ♠, and some for 9 card superfit too. This is a game forcing hand, not game try hand, and is not at all far of from a slam try DESPITE its mere 11 hcp. You total ZAR points counting superfit being something like 31 I believe. I can't imagine you would use language like "try for game."

I don't follow your subsequent auctions to the second two, but like you, i will respond with 2NT to both of those, and then drag my feet like crazy after that, because I have minimum GF values, unlike the first example.

BTW, ZAR bidding machine says 7.0 ♠ on all three hand combinations, and that just can't be right....in the case of the third combination, since you are off the ♣ACE (blackwood anyone), but 6♠ looks good to me....

---

Win 6♠ 3♥ 1♦ 1♣ and 1♣ ruff. The second hand combination is more problematic. There is no source of tricks, but with good guess in a red suit (and well placed king), you might scramble how with 12 tricks.

Anyway, I bid 2♣ on board one and jacoby on board 2,3, just as you have done in your latest post. And I still DISAGREE with your origianlly stated position of raising directly with four trumps...as you know apparently do too.

Ben

[Flame]

Mike i think you are laying to yourself here, trying to find excuses and missing the point. All three hands i gave you have 4 card fit, all have about the same streagh and all have no problem loosing 2 fast tricks (meaning no cue bidding will help much here) what distinguege this hand is the playing tricks avaliable from the club suit on the first hand and not on the other 2 which you wont find in system of showing shortage or cuer bidding.

[bearmum]

cnszsun, on Apr 14 2004, 07:32 PM, said:

You play 2/1 system and use a more complicated version of Jacoby 2NT which can show your partner's extra value, extra trump length and shortness.
Now your partner opens 1 major, you have four trumps support, a  good 5 cards suit, and GF strength. Will you respond 2NT or bid your own suit first (supposing your side suit is lower, so you can make 2/1 forcing bid first, then show suport)? Do the suit quality or hand pattern (5422,5431) affects your decision?

Maybe I don't understand "more complicated" Jac 2NT WHY would you bid your own suit BEFORE telling partner you have FOUR card support (and I believe in ANY form of Jac 2NT) at LEAST 12 points ???


UNLESS you mean the "which can show your partner's extra value, extra trump length and shortness" to mean that OPENER can show extra value extra trump length and shortness in which case I am TOTALLY confused

[the hog]

"Maybe I don't understand "more complicated" Jac 2NT"

This has nothing to do with a complicated or simple version of Jacoby. If you are looking for a contract higher than the game level, it helps to know that you have a source of tricks. Look at the following hand

AQxxxx
Axx
x
Kxx

The bidding goes 1S 2C 2S 4S. Playing the style where your 2C bid shows a suit, you have an easy try for 6S, because you know that your partner has AQxxx in C.
How will you get there after a Jacoby 2N?

[cnszsun]

I think the key point of this post is whether you will take a cooperative way or one-sided way when you make a decision on final contract.
When you bid Jac 2NT, most of time you're taking the leading role. You can get information through Jac 2NT asking process and the following cuebid or RKC, but your partner will never know you have good side suit.
But, if you start from a 2/1 process, information is exchanged between you and patrner. At last both can take leading role if he thought he has got enough information.
What i get from discussion here is that if you get a balanced or difficult to describe hand you are more inclined to use Jacoby, but with a more shaped hand, try to describe your hand.

[Trpltrbl]

inquiry, on Apr 15 2004, 11:03 AM, said:

Quote

On first example most won't bid J2NT with 11 count, my wk NT pd and I play 2NT as Inv or better. But the question was for J2NT, so I will bid 2♣, a slight overbid maybe but with my good ♠ fit and 2 aces, I'll try game. I bid 3♣, pd will bid 3♠, and I will bid 4♦. Pd RKC and asking specific Kings and we get to 7♠.

Wow,,, you go from not bidding a side card suit with four card support to bidding a side suit with good four card support in less than one day. Seems you changed your mind very quickly aoubt helping partner out. I note another thing here. You also turned me on to ZAR points, and here you will "try for game" (I assume this means make a game try). But this responder hand is worth a lot of ZAR points, on its own it has 27 ZAR points, and in support of ♠, you get two more for AQ of ♠, and some for 9 card superfit too. This is a game forcing hand, not game try hand, and is not at all far of from a slam try DESPITE its mere 11 hcp. You total ZAR points counting superfit being something like 31 I believe. I can't imagine you would use language like "try for game."

I don't follow your subsequent auctions to the second two, but like you, i will respond with 2NT to both of those, and then drag my feet like crazy after that, because I have minimum GF values, unlike the first example.

BTW, ZAR bidding machine says 7.0 ♠ on all three hand combinations, and that just can't be right....in the case of the third combination, since you are off the ♣ACE (blackwood anyone), but 6♠ looks good to me....

---

Win 6♠ 3♥ 1♦ 1♣ and 1♣ ruff. The second hand combination is more problematic. There is no source of tricks, but with good guess in a red suit (and well placed king), you might scramble how with 12 tricks.

Anyway, I bid 2♣ on board one and jacoby on board 2,3, just as you have done in your latest post. And I still DISAGREE with your origianlly stated position of raising directly with four trumps...as you know apparently do too.

Ben

I think I said in that post that I will bid 2NT, with my pd's who play that as limitraise or better. But with pd's I don't play much with, and therefore don't play ZAR (yet). I cannot bid J2NT since they play that stronger .

Mike