[Califdude]

Assume SAYC plain vanilla. You hold:

a. S xxx b. S KQJ
H AJ10 H AJ10
D KQxx D Kxxx
C Kxx C xxx

You open 1D and pard responds 1S, now what do you rebid? If your answer is 1NT for a and 2S for b, that would mean that somewhere in between these two hands there's a dividing point as between the two responses. I'd like to hear some discussion as to where that point is and what factors go into your choice. Or, do you guarantee 4-card support if you raise partner? If vulnerability is a factor, please mention it.

In another post here, I asked the question how weak of a major can you hold and respond 1 of that major to a minor suit openng and the answers were unanimous: 2345. I have that in mind in making this post.

Thanks for your replies.

[Stephen Tu]

This is very much a stylistic question, and there is not a clear right answer. I think with 3343 shape 1nt is going to draw the vast majority with both of your example hands. If the hand was something like KQJ xxx AKJx xxx with both round suits wide open then you will start to draw support for 2S but it won't be unanimous.

Raising with 3 cds has more popularity with 3(451) shapes, and 3(442) shapes with a small doubleton, although some people would never raise on 3442.

Yes, if you are responding on 5432 and raising on Jxx you will occasionally reach a poor spot. But bridge is a probabilistic game, those that do raise on 3 think they come out ahead in the long run.

[matmat]

7NT on a], 1NT on b]

[Califdude]

Tu's reply makes sense to me. If you have a singleton or doubleton that should head you more toward the raise. That would be because that would improve the chances of partner gaining tricks by ruffing and at the same time would increase the probability that opps can run a long suit against 1 NT.

[pclayton]

14 cards in example A.

I would rebid 1N on both (assuming A is really 3=3=3=4). I think only Adam likes to raise with 3 pieces and a 3334. While its stylistic, the vast majority prefer not to raise with 3 and a 3334.

As a matter of fact, there are many that will seldom raise with 3.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1NT on both, assuming we are talking about
bal. hands.

Raising with only 3 cards is ok, but I need a
5431 shape do to this.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Walddk]

pclayton, on Oct 31 2008, 04:43 AM, said:

As a matter of fact, there are many that will seldom raise with 3.

Most of those live in Poland and France where they never raise with three cards. My view is that you should with suitable hands, e.g. singleton or small doubleton in an unbid suit, but you should not unless you have a clear agreement regarding responder's continuation if he is strong enough.

Example:

1♦ - 1♠
2♠ - ??

♠ KJ93
♥ 53
♦ AQ87
♣ KJ2

In Poland and France you can safely jump to 4♠, but you can't if the single raise can be based on 3-card support. Then alternative games are in the frame, 3NT or 5♦. To find out you need a 2NT relay to investigate.

Roland

[Quantumcat]

Hi, I have the agreement with my p that you ALWAYS raise the major with a weak hand and 3 card support (makes responder's rebids WAY easier!).

With the previous comment, you can't really have a 2NT relay cause otherwise you have nothing to bid on the 11-12 HCP with 4 spades.

With the hand mentioned you could bid 3D, forcing, he'll bid 3S with a minimum, 3NT or 4S with a better hand and 3/4 spades respectively. If he bids 3S with a minimum, you could bid 3NT to show you're interested in his length of spades/diamonds (if you weren't, you'd have bid 3NT instead of 3D), now he'll pass with a balanced minimum or bid 4S with 4 spades or 4D with 3 spades and long diamonds and shape. If you had 4 of a different suit you could bid 3 of that and go through the same process. This sounds ok, doesn't it?

[awm]

pclayton, on Oct 30 2008, 09:43 PM, said:

I would rebid 1N on both (assuming A is really 3=3=3=4). I think only Adam likes to raise with 3 pieces and a 3334. While its stylistic, the vast majority prefer not to raise with 3 and a 3334.

As a matter of fact, there are many that will seldom raise with 3.

While I do raise on three cards more than a lot of people who post to these forums, it's my partner (Elianna) who really likes to raise with 4333.

My belief is that raising on hand a is a very poor bid. You have three small in spades, no ruffing values, and plentiful side-suit stoppers.

I suspect Elianna would raise on hand b, with three small clubs and very strong spades, but I would bid 1NT. There are definitely hands where the raise will work out (most likely is where responder has a weakish hand with five bad spades and some shape, and will of course not correct 1NT to 2♠). However, the raise will often lose when responder has only four spades, or when responder pushes for game on a five card suit (hoping for four-card support, or at least for some potential ruffs in dummy).

On Stephen Tu's example with two suits wide open I'd raise.

[Elianna]

I would bid 1NT on both hands.

[Quantumcat]

I thought the whole point of raising on three is to help your partner with his rebid, rather than deciding for your partner without even knowing what his problem might be, based on your own hand...

[Codo]

Quantumcat, on Nov 4 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

I thought the whole point of raising on three is to help your partner with his rebid, rather than deciding for your partner without even knowing what his problem might be, based on your own hand...

I thought the reason for raising with three is to describe my hand as good as possible and not to decide now what will help him with a possible rebid problem he will not have.

And I really don't see, how raising with three will solve his rebid problems. We make life for him easier if he has a 5 card suit, but maybe we make it more complicate if he just has four.