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Where's the setting trick ?

#1 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 04:08

Scoring: IMP

South plays 6 ♦.
♠ K won by declarer's A.


♠ 3 ruffed. East completed an echo by 7 and 2.

Your partner followed two rounds trumps with ten and six when you discard a low ♠. Declarer's ♥Q covered by yr K and A at th table. East played 4.

Two more round trumps drawn; while you and partner discarded spades declarer pitched a ♣ at table.

Now fifth trump led. But what must be the best approach west must take here ? B)
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#2 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 04:46

It's normal to give the auction before giving a defensive problem, so we aren't working in a complete vacuum.

Declarer is 2=6 in the pointy suits.
Assuming standard count, Partner's 4 of hearts is from one of 854, 43, 42 or 8432

If declarer is 2=3=6=2 including the CQ he is going off more or less whatever we do. We just discard a club or a spade on the 5th diamond. (If we discard a spade and he cashes the 6th diamond we can afford to discard a club, then rise on a club towards dummy as there is no entry to the CQ).

If declarer is 2=4=6=1 it's also uninteresting, we discard pretty much anything on the fifth diamond and there is no squeeze as partner is guarding clubs. But declarer can't have this hand, as partner would have discarded at least one club on the diamonds and/or completed the heart signal to let us know what is happening.

If declarer is 2=2=6=3 including Qxx in clubs it's more interesting. If we discard a club, he can duck out the ace of clubs. If we discard a heart, he has a ruffing finesse against partner's 8, so we have to discard the last spade. But now what does he do? He has to discard a card from dummy. I can't see how he can apply any pressure at all. If he throws a heart from dummy and plays the last trump, we just discard a club, there's no entry to the CQ even if he sets it up. If he plays the CQ from hand (to rectify the count) we just win and play a heart, it's hopeless for him.
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#3 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 05:52

FrancesHinden, on Oct 30 2008, 01:46 PM, said:

If declarer is 2=2=6=3 including Qxx in clubs it's more interesting.  If we discard a club, he can duck out the ace of clubs. If we discard a heart, he has a ruffing finesse against partner's 8, so we have to discard the last spade.  But now what does he do? He has to discard a card from dummy.  I can't see how he can apply any pressure at all. If he throws a heart from dummy and plays the last trump, we just discard a club, there's no entry to the CQ even if he sets it up.  If he plays the CQ from hand (to rectify the count) we just win and play a heart, it's hopeless for him.

Scoring: IMP

South plays 6 ♦.
♠ K won by declarer's A.


♠ 3 ruffed. East completed an echo by 7 and 2.

I don't know FrancesHinden would excuse me or not. I am really sorry about my carelessness.

I tried to edit ♥AJ76 and now corrected ♥AJ75 there. So ruffing finesse is not an option anymore.

Well, so far so good FrancesHinden. Maybe I have the chance to read at least two more replies here.

Thanks and regards.
Hamdi
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#4 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 06:02

FrancesHinden, on Oct 30 2008, 12:46 PM, said:

If declarer is 2=2=6=3 including Qxx in clubs it's more interesting.  If we discard a heart, he has a ruffing finesse against partner's 8,

He will have to ruff with his last trump after which we will still make a ♠ and ♣A.

FrancesHinden, on Oct 30 2008, 12:46 PM, said:

so we have to discard the last spade.  But now what does he do? He has to discard a card from dummy.  I can't see how he can apply any pressure at all. If he throws a heart from dummy and plays the last trump, we just discard a club, there's no entry to the CQ even if he sets it up.  If he plays the CQ from hand (to rectify the count) we just win and play a heart, it's hopeless for him.

If discard a ♠ then declarer can discard a ♣ from dummy (East will have to keep stopping ♥ and have to discard a ♣). Declarer plays a ♣ to the K in dummy and a ♣ back to his Q. His 3rd ♣ will be higher then your 5.
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#5 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 06:34

Scoring: IMP

So this ending "if" a spade thrown.


Congratulations for correct solution with murder in my heart "kgr". B)

Seems double automatic strip-squeeze there. Last trump forces out ♥ stopper. Then "must is a hard nut to crack" for East. Surely will pitch a ♣ and rest well known story.

p.s. I looked very old papers and saw original ♥ layout was AQ75 and J2. Seems no big deal.
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#6 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 06:51

Sorry, I had a heart and a club swapped in my post, (when I said "If he throws a heart from dummy and plays the last trump, we just discard a club, there's no entry to the CQ even if he sets it up" I meant a club from dummy i.e. down to two clubs only in dummy).

But there is still no squeeze for the reason I originally stated. We discard a heart on the last trump, dummy discards a card, and partner discards whatever suit has been unguarded in dummy.

I agree keeping a spade may make life easier for partner, now we know there is no ruffing heart finesse available, but it's certainly not necessary.
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#7 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 07:07

FrancesHinden, on Oct 30 2008, 03:51 PM, said:

Sorry, I had a heart and a club swapped in my post, (when I said "If he throws a heart from dummy and plays the last trump, we just discard a club, there's no entry to the CQ even if he sets it up" I meant a club from dummy i.e. down to two clubs only in dummy).

But there is still no squeeze for the reason I originally stated. We discard a heart on the last trump, dummy discards a card, and partner discards whatever suit has been unguarded in dummy.

I agree keeping a spade may make life easier for partner, now we know there is no ruffing heart finesse available, but it's certainly not necessary.

Rehi, no worries B)

That was a "seldom" occurred position to defeat a squeeze to play off th squeeze card at defence seat.

So we all understood it's unnecessary trying to hang on for a stopper which obviously will be forced out at any stage.
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#8 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 07:07

FrancesHinden, on Oct 30 2008, 02:51 PM, said:

Sorry, I had a heart and a club swapped in my post, (when I said "If he throws a heart from dummy and plays the last trump, we just discard a club, there's no entry to the CQ even if he sets it up" I meant a club from dummy i.e. down to two clubs only in dummy).

But there is still no squeeze for the reason I originally stated.  We discard a heart on the last trump, dummy discards a card, and partner discards whatever suit has been unguarded in dummy.

If we discard a ♠ and dummy discards a ♥ then we come to the end position shown by H_KARLUK above.
Now declarer plays the last trump, we discard a ♥ and dummy and East discard a ♣.

Declarer now plays small ♣ to the K and ♥J to remove Wests exit card, followed by a ♣ to his Q, making the last trick with ♣8.
If West plays ♣A when we play a ♣ to the K then ♣K needs to be unblocked in dummy, making ♣Q8 in declarers hand high.

Quote

I agree keeping a spade may make life easier for partner, now we know there is no ruffing heart finesse available, but it's certainly not necessary.

A ruffing finesse will never give 12 tricks if we keep a good ♠ and ♣A while declarer has only 1 trump left.
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#9 User is offline   H_KARLUK 

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Posted 2008-October-30, 08:38

Scoring: IMP

So this ending "if" a spade thrown.


Say a ♣ pitched by West, declarer would release losing heart at table.
Now East immaterial.
Then low to ♣ K which wins and another ♣ back low from hand will bring twelve tricks.

Table would still ♣ entry to hand. Nice trick taking potential, high cards not covered by opponents. B)
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