[Codo]

You have the following undisturbed bidding in the context of a natural 5 card major system:

1 ♣ 1 ♥
2 ♣ 2 ♦
2 ♠

1 CLub / 2 Club showed 6 (maybe 5) clubs, normal strength and no 4 in either major. 2 Diamond is new minor forcing.

I had never thought that 2 ♠ here can be anything else then.....?

Well, what shows two spades here to you?

[hotShot]

A minimum hand with 5+♣'s and a (2)3 card ♠ suit with stopper showing tolerance if partner wants to play 2/3 NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

The bid does not exist in my system.

We know, opener is short in hearts and is unbal.
With 3-1-3-6 and a diamond stopper he could,
would have bid 2NT / 3NT, similar with 3-1-4-5.

In my opinion, it showes either a 5431 shape
or a hand with 6 clubs and maximum values,
take your pick, most likely the agreement,
that 2S showes 3 good cards is easier to remember.

But the sitiuation, that you have 6 clubs should be
more frequent.
Hence having a way to tell partner that you hold a
min / max. for your bidding should be more useful
in the long run.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Values in spades, denies three hearts.

[FrancesHinden]

So I've agreed to play a convention (new minor forcing) but I haven't agreed what the simplest of responses to the convention means?

It shows whatever you and your partner have agreed that it shows. I don't play nmf, so I have never discussed what openers rebids mean.

Or are you having a partnership discussion and debating what it ought to mean? if so, then the question is still pointless, because the meaning of 2S depends on what 2H, 2NT, 3C, 3D and 3H mean (even leaving aside some of the higher bids).

If I were being asked to start playing this convention, I'd need to know the following before debating what 2S means:

Is 2D invitational or better, or game forcing?
What hand types are included in 2D? Can the 2D bidder have a spade suit? Can the 2D bidder have an invitational hand with clubs? Can the 2D bidder have an invitational hand with hearts? A game force with hearts?

What do calls other than 2D mean by responder? Is 3C forcing? Is 3H forcing?

What is the style of opener's opening/rebid? How often would opener raise 1H to 2H with 3-card support? How often would opener rebid 1NT on an unbalanced hand (3145, 4144)? How often would opener rebid 1NT with 6 clubs - has 2C promised a singleton somewhere? Can opener be 4=4 in the minors? Can opener be 4=5 in the minors, or would you open that 1D?

What NT range are you playing? How strict are your shape requirements for opening 1NT?

Are you playing Walsh? How strictly? Can responder be 4=4 or 4=5 in the red suits once he is strong enough to bid 2D over 2C?

[Codo]

Thanks Frances,

we did discuss a lot, but as we both had been sure what 2 Spade is, we had no discussion about this and learned the hard way that our understanding differs.
But to answer your questions: We "never "raise with 3 card support. And we "never" rebid 1 NT with unbalanced hands. The only possible hand I can think of is a 3145, where I may choose 1 NT.
Opener cannot be 44, this had been opened 1 Diamond and surely it had another rebid avaiable. We don't play walsh and 1 NT is 14-16 at least semibalanced.

The other bids:

2 Heart invitational (8-10) . 2 Spade nat. GF 2 SA nat inv., 3 Club inv. 3 Diamond GF, and 3 Heart GF with 6+ HEarts.

2 Diamond is at least invitational with 5 Hearts or GF with 5 Hearts and a possible minor or GF with 5 HEarts and a balanced hand.

[FrancesHinden]

or GF with 3/4-card club support and 4 hearts?

[ASkolnick]

Actually, I would guess its forward going with 3 card spade suit, but no true stopper. What does one bid with,

Qxx
x
Axx
AKQxxx

You want to move forward. Not sure if NT is right and you have plenty of values but no support,

Its possible you have 4 spades, but that is very unlikely the suit bid.

[jdonn]

It is 'natural', but since you have already denied four spades it shows at least Hxx.

[FrancesHinden]

As (i) 2D doesn't promise anything in diamonds, and (ii) we have not denied 3-card heart support, I would assume that:

- 2H shows 3-card heart support, or (rarely) doubleton heart and no other suitable bid

- 2S shows values in spades but not suitable for bidding 2NT/3NT, either because of lack of a diamond stop, or because the hand feels too good to bid a non-forcing 2NT and 3NT is too committal (but see suggestion below)

- 2NT shows something in both pointy suits, but definitely a diamond stop, non-forcing

- 3C emphasises good clubs

- 3D shows extra values and 4(+) diamonds

- 3NT shows extras, stops in spades and diamonds, but unsuitable for slam

- 3H+ probably don't really exist.

Alternatively, you might like to play that 2NT, 3C & 3H are natural and game forcing, and with minimum hands you have to bid either 2H or 2S, 2H being passable, over which 2NT and 3H by responder are passable but everything else is game forcing.

p.s. but as I don't actually play nmf, this isn't what anyone would call 'standard', it's roughly what I'd suggest playing if we decided to start playing it, although I'd make 2H a completely neutral rebid by opener, as 3-card heart support is very very unlikely for me.

[OleBerg]

Codo, on Oct 27 2008, 12:30 PM, said:

I had never thought that 2 ♠ here can be anything else then.....?

Fourth-suit forcing. Game-force with no good bid.

I wont yield to the "Pattern-out-crowd" on this one.

[MickyB]

OleBerg, on Oct 27 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

Codo, on Oct 27 2008, 12:30 PM, said:

I had never thought that 2 ♠ here can be anything else then.....?

Fourth-suit forcing. Game-force with no good bid.

I wont yield to the "Pattern-out-crowd" on this one.

I presume from the description of 2♦ as "NMF" that it doesn't show diamonds. How can you bid fourth-suit forcing when only two suits have so far been shown?

[OleBerg]

MickyB, on Oct 27 2008, 11:01 PM, said:

OleBerg, on Oct 27 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

Codo, on Oct 27 2008, 12:30 PM, said:

I had never thought that 2 ♠ here can be anything else then.....?

Fourth-suit forcing. Game-force with no good bid.

I wont yield to the "Pattern-out-crowd" on this one.

I presume from the description of 2♦ as "NMF" that it doesn't show diamonds. How can you bid fourth-suit forcing when only two suits have so far been shown?

Thought it showed diamonds.

What is "New minor forcing"?

[jdonn]

In this context, new minor forcing means 2♦ is artificial and at least invitational. Possible hands that would bid it are -

- Invitational or better with five hearts.
- Game forcing with six hearts.
- Game forcing club raise.
- Balanced hand with a flaw for notrump (perhaps AKxx KQxx xxx Qx).

I don't see the logic in having 2♠ not show something in spades. With what shapes do you want to make that bid where you can't do something else more descriptive?

[awm]

Obviously 2♠ does not show 4♠, since opener would've rebid 1♠ with that.

It seems to me there are basically two possibilities here:

(1) Bidding 2♠ shows values in spades, but tends to be weak in diamonds (else bid NT).

(2) Bidding 2♠ shows weakness in spades ("fourth suit").

I don't think it's particularly obvious which of these treatments is better. The first treatment is "more natural." However, it may be worth noting that 1♣-1♥-2♣-2♠ would likely be natural and forcing in this auction. So neither opener nor responder should have four spades, whereas either or both are likely to have some diamond length. This suggests that spades (and not diamonds) is the "problem suit" for notrump in which case it might be slightly better for 2♠ to indicate a problem in spades.

[OleBerg]

jdonn, on Oct 27 2008, 11:10 PM, said:

In this context, new minor forcing means 2♦ is artificial and at least invitational. Possible hands that would bid it are -

- Invitational or better with five hearts.
- Game forcing with six hearts.
- Game forcing club raise.
- Balanced hand with a flaw for notrump (perhaps AKxx KQxx xxx Qx).

I don't see the logic in having 2♠ not show something in spades. With what shapes do you want to make that bid where you can't do something else more descriptive?

2-2-3-6 with a weak club-suit.

3-2-3-5. Assuming 432 doesn't constitute "Something in spades".

[jdonn]

OleBerg, on Oct 27 2008, 04:18 PM, said:

2-2-3-6 with a weak club-suit.

3-2-3-5. Assuming 432 doesn't constitute "Something in spades".

First one rebid 2NT if spades and diamonds are stopped, 2♥ if you don't (in which case your hearts almost surely have an honor). That's right, 2♥ on a doubleton! Trust me.

The second one is obviously a 1NT rebid, not 2♣.

[mike777]

Codo, on Oct 27 2008, 05:30 AM, said:

You have the following undisturbed bidding in the context of a natural 5 card major system:

1 ♣ 1 ♥
2 ♣ 2 ♦
2 ♠

1 CLub / 2 Club showed 6 (maybe 5) clubs, normal strength and no 4 in either major. 2 Diamond is new minor forcing.

I had never thought that 2 ♠ here can be anything else then.....?

Well, what shows two spades here to you?

There have been a lot of excellent threads on 1c=1major=2clubs=rebid in the past few months.

I also call 2d here nmf as a shorthand but I think MIKEH and others have pointed out this is not the best wording.

Hopefully we all agree now that 2d is a gameforcing bid and does not promise a D suit.
With an invite hand or a weak hand with long D we need to find another bid.

For me I thought 2s was easy, Spade values, stoppers. Denies 3H. If 2s is somesort of Advanced cuebid for hearts, partner will need to clarify later but I would think bidding a simple 2h would be best if that was the case.

[OleBerg]

jdonn, on Oct 27 2008, 11:23 PM, said:

OleBerg, on Oct 27 2008, 04:18 PM, said:

2-2-3-6 with a weak club-suit.

3-2-3-5. Assuming 432 doesn't constitute "Something in spades".

First one rebid 2NT if spades and diamonds are stopped, 2♥ if you don't (in which case your hearts almost surely have an honor). That's right, 2♥ on a doubleton! Trust me.

Is that forcing? If not, I need a bid for forcing hands. 3♥ on a doubleton seems a little on the wild side.

Quote

The second one is obviously a 1NT rebid, not 2♣.

Sounds reasonable.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Oct 27 2008, 04:27 PM, said:

Hopefully we all agree now that 2d is a gameforcing  bid and does not promise a D suit.

2♦ is not game forcing.

OleBerg, on Oct 27 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 27 2008, 11:23 PM, said:

First one rebid 2NT if spades and diamonds are stopped, 2♥ if you don't (in which case your hearts almost surely have an honor). That's right, 2♥ on a doubleton! Trust me.

Is that forcing? If not, I need a bid for forcing hands. 3♥ on a doubleton seems a little on the wild side.

If you are too good for 2NT, you can always bid 2♥ (not 3♥) with a doubleton. Trust me, it works.