[DrTodd13]

Playing standard american, partner opens 1♦ and you respond 1♠. Partner bids 2♣. I had a discussion the other day with someone and we wondered how well beginners and intermediates know standard american. If you're a beginner or intermediate please answer this poll with the least number of points you would generally have and find a pass of 2♣ unacceptable?

[jdonn]

For me 9. Well 100% I would never pass with 10, and I think over 99% I would never pass with 9, but the hand might possibly exist where I would.

[rogerclee]

Josh is a beginner/int now?

[ochinko]

I voted for 10 because I pass with something like Qxxx-Qxx-Jx-Kjxx. Looks like I am the most conservative for now.

[DrTodd13]

In some horrible misfit perhaps but if it isn't a misfit would you ever pass a 7 point hand when partner could have 18?

[ochinko]

DrTodd13, on Oct 26 2008, 10:47 PM, said:

In some horrible misfit perhaps but if it isn't a misfit would you ever pass a 7 point hand when partner could have 18?

With 18 I would expect 3♣ instead of 2♣. Most of the time my partner will be closer to 11 than to 17. Wouldn't you open with ♠xx-♥xx-♦AKxxx-♣Axxx?

[DrTodd13]

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing. You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

[ochinko]

DrTodd13, on Oct 26 2008, 11:00 PM, said:

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing. You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

I voted for 10, so I wouldn't pass with 10. And I gave an example hand with which I would pass with 9. And it had a fit. What would you bid with it?

[DrTodd13]

ochinko, on Oct 26 2008, 12:06 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Oct 26 2008, 11:00 PM, said:

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing.  You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

I voted for 10, so I wouldn't pass with 10. And I gave an example hand with which I would pass with 9. And it had a fit. What would you bid with it?

3♣ seems pretty normal there.

[dicklont]

Partner can hold 17 HCP unbalanced.
Therefore is must try to find a bid with 8, but that won't always be possible.
Still I voted 8.

[ochinko]

DrTodd13, on Oct 26 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

ochinko, on Oct 26 2008, 12:06 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Oct 26 2008, 11:00 PM, said:

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing.  You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

I voted for 10, so I wouldn't pass with 10. And I gave an example hand with which I would pass with 9. And it had a fit. What would you bid with it?

3♣ seems pretty normal there.

Realistically opener will have 12-14 most of the time. If you want him to accept with good 14, you should have more than 5-6, no?

Let's turn the table now. You open with xx-Kx-AQxxx-KQxx. If it goes 1♦-1♠-2♣-2NT do you pass now because you expect as little as 7 points or less?

[han]

Opener will bid 2C with some 18's, responder will pass with some 8's, you will play in some 2C contracts with 3NT cold.

[fred]

I think those who argue "you must try to find a bid with 7 because otherwise you might miss a game if partner has a super-maximum" are missing something.

While it is true that there is a downside in passing with such a hand (you could miss a game) there is also a downside to bidding with such a hand (you could get too high).

In the end, bridge is a game of probabilities. Regardless of how you answer this question you will win some of the time and lose some of the time. In order to come up with a proper answer to this question you need to take into account both the risks and the rewards of the various answers (as well as the relative likelyness of various outcomes).

Thinking only about "the risk of missing game" is not sufficient for coming up with the correct answer.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[han]

Form of scoring seems very relevant btw.

[DrTodd13]

ochinko, on Oct 26 2008, 12:25 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Oct 26 2008, 11:16 PM, said:

ochinko, on Oct 26 2008, 12:06 PM, said:

DrTodd13, on Oct 26 2008, 11:00 PM, said:

3♣ (a jump shift by opener) is 100% game forcing.  You wouldn't game force with 18 opposite 5 would you?

You admit 2♣ could be 17 so why would you ever pass with 10 or even 8?

I voted for 10, so I wouldn't pass with 10. And I gave an example hand with which I would pass with 9. And it had a fit. What would you bid with it?

3♣ seems pretty normal there.

Realistically opener will have 12-14 most of the time. If you want him to accept with good 14, you should have more than 5-6, no?

Let's turn the table now. You open with xx-Kx-AQxxx-KQxx. If it goes 1♦-1♠-2♣-2NT do you pass now because you expect as little as 7 points or less?

I think that 2N should show more strength than a preference to one of opener's minors. Maybe with a very weak hand one should bid 2♦ (with at least 2♦) even with 4+♣ to give opener another chance. Personally, I think if my system presented me with this problem then I wouldn't play that system given there are other systems that don't have nearly as huge a hole in it. Still, when in doubt, overbid. With a terrible misfit I'd look to get out as cheap as possible but if I have any kind of a fit I'd strive to bid again. True, we might end up at 3♣ with 18 points but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[jdonn]

rogerclee, on Oct 26 2008, 02:20 PM, said:

Josh is a beginner/int now?

I thought you were all about talking about the bridge instead of personal attacks

[mike777]

Playing with a great pickup partner I am never going to pass 10. I feel comfortable passing 6. I think I will pass many 7 pointers but bid many 9 pointers.
Lets call 8 pointers 60-40 bid.

[TimG]

ochinko, on Oct 26 2008, 03:25 PM, said:

Realistically opener will have 12-14 most of the time. If you want him to accept with good 14, you should have more than 5-6, no?

Let's turn the table now. You open with xx-Kx-AQxxx-KQxx. If it goes 1♦-1♠-2♣-2NT do you pass now because you expect as little as 7 points or less?

Not all continuations suggest opener should "accept" with a good 14.

Preference to diamonds leaves the auction open, but doesn't mean opener should be bidding game with his good 14s. He will bid again, however, when he has 17 or 18.

You example auction, 1♦-1♠-2♣-2N, suggests a different strength hand than a mere preference to 2♦. I would expect around 10-11 for this 2N rebid.

[pclayton]

I suppose with an ugly 9 count and 1=3 in the minors I'd pass. This is an absoulte max and I would apologize profusely if we had a game.

[rbforster]

I think a lot of people will take "false preference" sometimes here, say with 4♣ and 3♦ and a low-end hand (7-8?), and bid 2♦ even though they have longer or equal clubs. This gives opener a chance for another bid when they have a big hand (like 2N or something).