[helene_t]

PassedOut, on Oct 27 2008, 06:10 AM, said:

inquiry, on Oct 26 2008, 11:37 PM, said:

This is bad... .

students blocked from voting

The officials involved in these illegal purges should receive long jail sentences. The new attorney general should make sure that happens.

Agree.

But I don't understand how voter registration can be such a problem. Isn't there a central database with ID numbers of all US citizens? Just issue ballots to all of them. That's how it works in the Netherlands and Scandinavia. I have never heard of problems with voter registration. As an expat who has frequently moved between foreign addresses without telling the Danish civil registry, I belong to the small minority of Danish citizens who don't automatically receive a ballot ticket when there is something to vote for in Denmark. I could get one at a Danish embassy by showing up with my passport, and I suppose it could be dealt with per mail also if I send them a photocopy of my passport. In any case it's not like it could be an issue whether I have the right to vote or not, or that I could possibly register twice, or with a fake passport. Admittedly if someone stole my passport and I didn't report it I suppose they could vote on my behalf, at least if they looked like me and could imitate my signature. Or some of the former employers etc who have photocopies of my passport and know I am living abroad and don't bother to vote could probably vote on my behalf, at least if they took the effort to have a fake version of my passport made (that issue is being resolved shortly as they move towards electronic verification of passports).

As for ballots that get discarded due to unreadability etc. That happens in Denmark too but each individual ballot is seen by officials appointed by opposing parties. Not sure how it is resolved if there is disagreement, I suppose the local electoral committee which represents several parties would vote about it. The system PassedOut describes with the optical scanner sounds better.

[jikl]

Helene, you are forgetting how few US citizens ever leave the country or even their state, let alone have a passport.

Sean

[helene_t]

That should make it even easier. Citizens who never migrate should be easy to trace. No excuse for not just sending them a ticket.

[y66]

Central database with ID numbers of all US citizens? Surprisingly no. This is partly a political issue (unregistered voters are disproportionately younger, less affluent and foreign born), a funding issue (see political issue) and a right to privacy issue (see political issue).

[ASkolnick]

No, Mike's point is simply this...

When there is a scandal on the Republican side, reporter's are the first to dig their heels into it. But if the scandal was on the Democrat's side, not as much is made about it.

As for voting, in the US, we do not live in a Democracy, we live in a Democratic Republic, a federation of states. Our tenth ammendment states all things not explicitly documented to be executed by the Federal Government will be deferred to the states or the people. Therefore, the states should handle it.

The reason for the Electoral College was to correct any "mistake" made by the public. Or as James Madison put it, "the masses are asses". So there is reason for it.

Now, why each state forces all the electorals to vote exactly the same way in a winner take all does not make any sense to me, even though that is how the Republicans run their primary. The thing is, this is not how delegates used to have to be divided.

One would think a better distribution of delegates would be either:

a) Weighted average of delegates compared to the voting.
Each delegate represents a region. If you win that region, you get that delegate.

And as for the people who say "Gore won without the votes counted", people don't seem to remember articles saying that even if those votes did count, he would not have.

I am a Republican and I despise Bush. What I don't understand after the 1st term is how the Democrats even were at a point to "leave it up to the refs"

[cherdano]

ASkolnick, on Oct 27 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

No, Mike's point is simply this...

When there is a scandal on the Republican side, reporter's are the first to dig their heels into it. But if the scandal was on the Democrat's side, not as much is made about it.

Right, I can't remember any media reports about ACORN...

Can we please stop these bogus "but there are [insert other side] scandals, too"? Or even worse, as Mike keeps doing on voting issues, "but there were Democratic voting scandals 40+ years ago, too"?

[PassedOut]

Good News: The attempt by Georgia to engage in state-sponsored vote fraud has been blocked by the federal courts: Panel Blocks Georgia Voter Checks

Quote

Georgia is one of several states that needs federal approval before changing election policy because of a history of discriminatory voting practices.

But northern states don't have quite the same protection. I do understand, though, that lawyers are ready to do battle to protect voting rights at a moment's notice.

[mike777]

PassedOut, on Oct 27 2008, 02:03 PM, said:

Good News: The attempt by Georgia to engage in state-sponsored vote fraud has been blocked by the federal courts: Panel Blocks Georgia Voter Checks

Quote

Georgia is one of several states that needs federal approval before changing election policy because of a history of discriminatory voting practices.

But northern states don't have quite the same protection. I do understand, though, that lawyers are ready to do battle to protect voting rights at a moment's notice.

In this example this does sound like good news.

Georgia does have a bad record on voting rights compared to other states.

The problem I raised however still exists. How do you purge the voter roles or do better voter checks. For some reason the idea of even more detailed databases with even more detailed voter information in them scares me.

As I said I thought this article had nothing new in it and I wish to see articles that discuss in more details what this "mismatch" problem is and why state after state after state does not seem able to fix it in a non illiegal way.

Having grown up in a small College town half my life I think the issue of students having problems in voting feels like a never ending one.

[mike777]

jikl, on Oct 27 2008, 05:02 AM, said:

Quote

In the meantime much of the rest of the world discriminates against babies born "in country" even more than usa ...

Actually Mike, I think you are talking ***** again.

Here in Australia voting is compulsory. There are ways out of it (never registering in the first place at 18 years of age, or moving about 4-5 times so they give up on you but you may have a fine waiting for you if you do this. Yes, you do get a fine for not voting without a very good reason) This means you need less validation rules because you can't pretend to be someone else that is already registered. It also means you have less vote stacking. Don't base your world knowledge just on what is in your backyard.

Sean

Granted this is should be a side thread so I will just respond to this and end.

I am glad if Aust does not have a problem of voting surpression but speaking of my own backyard, Mexico, and other countries south of the border this problem exists. The problem is huge in Japan. I have spoken and provided links in other threads of the tests these children must go through. Again this is the issue of children born in country who are not automatically voting citizens.

Granted here in the USA we seem unable to do a decent job of purging the voter rolls without voter suppression issues being raised.

[mike777]

cherdano, on Oct 27 2008, 01:13 PM, said:

ASkolnick, on Oct 27 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

No, Mike's point is simply this...

When there is a scandal on the Republican side, reporter's are the first to dig their heels into it.  But if the scandal was on the Democrat's side, not as much is made about it.

Right, I can't remember any media reports about ACORN...

Can we please stop these bogus "but there are [insert other side] scandals, too"? Or even worse, as Mike keeps doing on voting issues, "but there were Democratic voting scandals 40+ years ago, too"?

My point was not as you make out that bad behavior justifies bad behavior. It does not.

I do not see where I ever came across advocating such a thing but perhaps as JDONN points out my grammer or syntax should be improved.


It is that this bad behavior(voters not being able to vote) has been going on forever and I would like to see articles that address why it is not stopped. I feel we both agree on this issue.

[jdonn]

Mike if you don't like the article, then you should do two things. Stop commenting on it, and write a better one!

[luke warm]

jdonn, on Oct 27 2008, 03:18 PM, said:

Mike if you don't like the article, then you should do two things. Stop commenting on it, and write a better one!

yeah mike, only comment on those reports you agree with or write one of your own - like everybody else does in the cooler

[jdonn]

What would you suggest someone do who doesn't like an article just because it didn't include the things they want to read about? Complain about it in numerous posts? Most people manage to focus on the content that was actually part of the article, and without writing any gibberish to boot. I mean I didn't like the article either because it didn't tell me anything about Lebron James, who I think is very cool.

[cherdano]

Agree with Donn, Lebron is cool.

[mikeh]

PassedOut, on Oct 22 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

Only pipsqueaks and scum approve of tactics like this. Not all republicans are like those mentioned in the article.

I readily accept that assertion. But, surely, continued membership in and financial support (let alone voting support) of the party that is most heavily implicated in this amounts to condonation of the practice?

Staying silent, while sending in donations, or giving one's vote.. how is that different, in effect, from 'supporting' it?

[Al_U_Card]

Sometime in the not-to-distant future, historians will reflect on the rather bizarre presidency of W. Referred to as the W years, they will reflect on the cavalier and puerile style of the chief executive. Also the unprecedented and unrepeated exercise of power by the veep as well as the nefarious influence of Karl Rove. Justice department scandals, memory problems to rival microsoft, the gutting of the constitution and the bill of rights. From the Al-qaida experience to the war on terror. A most tumultuous period that led to total financial collapse as well as congressional gridlock. Fortunately they only lasted 12 years until martial law had finally restored order and the new Empire of the United States was founded in 2012. It really was the end of the world as we knew it.

[jdeegan]

I know this miserable berg. Leave it alone. It is the bunghole of the Southern Rockies. Without saving grace, it does not deserve any further opprobrium. Nearby Raton (rat in Spanish) is a far better place.

[helene_t]

mikeh, on Oct 28 2008, 01:28 AM, said:

But, surely, continued membership in and financial support (let alone voting support) of the party that is most heavily implicated in this amounts to condonation of the practice?

Staying silent, while sending in donations, or giving one's vote.. how is that different, in effect, from 'supporting' it?

I think this a little unfair. I think it is OK to take other things than election fraud into consideration when deciding which party to vote for.

There was a time when my then favorite party was involved in large-scale corruption in Copenhagen. Obviously I didn't vote for that party at local elections, but I did vote for them sometimes at national and EP elections. They had a lot of good people, too.

[luke warm]

mikeh, on Oct 27 2008, 07:28 PM, said:

PassedOut, on Oct 22 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

Only pipsqueaks and scum approve of tactics like this. Not all republicans are like those mentioned in the article.

I readily accept that assertion. But, surely, continued membership in and financial support (let alone voting support) of the party that is most heavily implicated in this amounts to condonation of the practice?

Staying silent, while sending in donations, or giving one's vote.. how is that different, in effect, from 'supporting' it?

how far are you willing to take this?

[helene_t]

blackshoe, on Oct 24 2008, 03:06 PM, said:

Who has the right to vote, and so on, is in the Constitution. If states are violating the constitution, enforcement of the provisions of that document is certainly in the purview of the federal government.

Although I know the constitution plays a more prominent role in US law than in Europe, this surprises me. I would expect the constitution to come into play in the event that a state passed an unconstitutional law, say barring blacks from voting. That is not the issue, though. What happens is that state officials violate their own laws (I suppose).

Anyway, the article PassedOut just posted a link to is a relief. One can hope other cases can be dealt with similarly.