[awm]

Here's a hand Elianna told me about yesterday. I'm curious what people would do on this one. The scoring is matchpoints and partner opens 1♥ (five-card majors, standard range). You hold:

♠x
♥Axx
♦xx
♣KQxxxxx

The poll answers are tuned to Elianna and my methods. We play a non-forcing 1NT response that will not normally suppress support for partner and have two ways to make a limit raise. The distinction is usually that a direct 3♥ is a four-card limit raise and 2NT is either a three-card limit raise or a four-card GF raise, but we tend to distinguish between "good" and "bad" limit raises rather than being super strict about the number of trumps (so occasionally a nice 3-card raise with shape might bid 3♥ and a 4333 four-card raise might bid 2NT). Our two-over-one bids are just forcing one round but subsequently showing a real fit for partner's first-bid suit establishes a game force.

If you would do something different (like bid a forcing 1NT) in your preferred methods feel free to post a comment.

[jdonn]

It seems clear to me to start with 2♣, as I am quite happy to force to game on this. There are even many hands that make 6♣ but not 6♥, and I think a lot of them can be diagnosed.

[mike777]

2c no problem yet.

[inquiry]

Way too many ZAR points not to force to game. In fact, approaching enough to think about possible slam.

2♣ now, raise hearts later.

[kenrexford]

I'll start with the obvious 2♣ also. I'm waiting before commitment to a rebid.

[effervesce]

I'm not sure if I'd actually do this, but 4♥ preemptive at MPs seems reasonable. At MPs frequency is king-how often do you actually want to be in slam, and how often will you want to be in anything other than 4♥? (Actually I guess clubs will often be a better spot given the opps can probably tap dummy). There is also an extremely likely chance the opponents have a spade-diamond doublefit. Why give them the chance to bid spades or diamonds at a low level?

Also, no fit-showing jump option? (Then again, fit-showing jump hands are also relatively infrequent...)

[pclayton]

2♣ for me too.

Rexford taught me to stop counting HCP.

[crazy4hoop]

I sorta like 2NT, planning to bid clubs if partner attempts to sign off. 2NT makes it a little bit more difficult for them to compete in spades. I must admit that all the 2♣ bidders all have very valid reasons (especially about clubs being the potential right strain, making 6 when 6♥ fails or making 7 when only 6♥ makes) for choosing it and I almost did myself.

Maybe 2NT followed by a new suit when partner attempts to sign off should show this type of hand - better than a limit raise in terms of playing strength but not quite the traditional "textbook" game force on which strict point counters rely.

[benlessard]

I dont really like 2C because it might lead partner to double 4S. 4Sx+1 would not surprise me on this deal.

I think i like the direct 3H bid. If it goes all pass, than maybe 3H +1,+2 is better than 4S going down.

[655321]

2♣ for me.

[rogerclee]

benlessard, on Oct 16 2008, 10:20 PM, said:

I dont really like 2C because it might lead partner to double 4S. 4Sx+1 would not surprise me on this deal.

I think i like the direct 3H bid. If it goes all pass, than maybe 3H +1,+2 is better than 4S going down.

You know your side has over half the deck and is likely to have only 8 hearts, neither of your opponents has bid spades, and you are about to GF with 2♣, you are not void in spades, and you are already paranoid about 4♠x+1.

LOL.

(2♣ for me.)

[gnasher]

benlessard, on Oct 17 2008, 06:20 AM, said:

I dont really like 2C because it might lead partner to double 4S. 4Sx+1 would not surprise me on this deal.

It would surprise me, because I can't think of many auctions where I'd agree to defend 4♠x.

[benlessard]

If LHO has already passed I agree that its not likely they ll reach 4S and i would bid 2C. But LHO hasnt bid yet. If Im showing a good limit raise and partner pass then its quite likely LHO has a hand to overcall 2S anyway. If the hand is a double fit than the chance they reach 4S seems pretty high if i respond 2C and if the hand isnt a double fit than my hand is probably just worth a good limit raise.

You are naive thinking that 4Sx isnt a good possibility here, where i live opps are quick to get the S in and they are quick to bid 4S over 4H. I think the chance that 2C backfire is greater than the chance that 3H goes all pass and we make 4 or the chance that 2C will lead to a good slam that is unbidable after a 3H response.

I agree 3H is a small underbid, but 2C as a fair chance of inconvience too.

[655321]

benlessard, on Oct 17 2008, 04:12 AM, said:

If LHO has already passed I agree that its not likely they ll reach 4S and i would bid 2C. But LHO hasnt bid yet. If Im showing a good limit raise and partner pass then its quite likely LHO has a hand to overcall 2S anyway. If the hand is a double fit than the chance they reach 4S seems pretty high if i respond 2C and if the hand isnt a double fit than my hand is probably just worth a good limit raise.

You are naive thinking that 4Sx isnt a good possibility here, where i live opps are quick to get the S in and they are quick to bid 4S over 4H. I think the chance that 2C backfire is greater than the chance that 3H goes all pass and we make 4 or the chance that 2C will lead to a good slam that is unbidable after a 3H response.

I agree 3H is a small underbid, but 2C as a fair chance of inconvience too.

The 2♣ response, showing values, but not showing a fit, makes it much less attractive for the opponents to start bidding spades. On the other hand, a 3♥ bid, showing 4 support and denying the values to force to game makes it much more attractive for them to enter the auction.

I won't say it is impossible to think of a hand that would pass over a 3♥ response but bid over a 2♣ response, but I can't think of one.

Not sure what sort of fields you play in if your opponents are quick to enter the bidding after a 2/1, but frightened to bid at the 3 level when you have shown a 9 card fit.

[rogerclee]

655321, on Oct 17 2008, 02:59 AM, said:

benlessard, on Oct 17 2008, 04:12 AM, said:

If LHO has already passed I agree that its not likely they ll reach 4S and i would bid 2C. But LHO hasnt bid yet. If Im showing a good limit raise and partner pass then its quite likely LHO has a hand to overcall 2S anyway. If the hand is a double fit than the chance they reach 4S seems pretty high if i respond 2C and if the hand isnt a double fit than my hand is probably just worth a good limit raise.

You are naive thinking that 4Sx isnt a good possibility here, where i live opps are quick to get the S in and they are quick to bid 4S over 4H. I think the chance that 2C backfire is greater than the chance that 3H goes all pass and we make 4 or the chance that 2C will lead to a good slam that is unbidable after a 3H response.

I agree 3H is a small underbid, but 2C as a fair chance of inconvience too.

The 2♣ response, showing values, but not showing a fit, makes it much less attractive for the opponents to start bidding spades. On the other hand, a 3♥ bid, showing 4 support and denying the values to force to game makes it much more attractive for them to enter the auction.

I won't say it is impossible to think of a hand that would pass over a 3♥ response but bid over a 2♣ response, but I can't think of one.

Not sure what sort of fields you play in if your opponents are quick to enter the bidding after a 2/1, but frightened to bid at the 3 level when you have shown a 9 card fit.

Basically agree with 655321, except I would have been much more sarcastic and put in some "LOL!!"s.

[the hog]

2C, not some sort of H raise which totally distorts the hand.

[gnasher]

benlessard, on Oct 17 2008, 10:12 AM, said:

You are naive thinking that 4Sx isnt a good possibility here, where i live opps are quick to get the S in and they are quick to bid 4S over 4H.

Do you play some strange variant of bridge where a double ends the auction without the requirement that it be followed by three passes? If I responded 2♣, the opponents bid 4♠ before I'd had a chance to clarify my hand-type, and partner doubled it, I would take it out.

[Codo]

gnasher, on Oct 17 2008, 08:58 PM, said:

benlessard, on Oct 17 2008, 10:12 AM, said:

You are naive thinking that 4Sx isnt a good possibility here, where i live opps are quick to get the S in and they are quick to bid 4S over 4H.

Do you play some strange variant of bridge where a double ends the auction without the requirement that it be followed by three passes? If I responded 2♣, the opponents bid 4♠ before I'd had a chance to clarify my hand-type, and partner doubled it, I would take it out.

I think it is umlikely that this bidding is my main problem, but how do you take out the double after
1♥ (pass) 2 ♣ (4♠)
x?

I guess you want to bid 5 Heart to show your support at now?
And pd shall have a good idea from your hand and does know hwen to pass and when to bid 6?

Same is true after f.e.
1♥ (pass) 2 ♣ (2♠) pass (4♠) ? You will bid 5 Heart but this is far from perfect either.


I will support now (2 NT, GF) and happily await the further bidding. (Of course this is not bullet proofed either and can work horrible when all of you are in a slam opposite xxx,KQJxxx,Ax,Ax and I play just 4 Heart + 2...

[ArtK78]

Tough hand.

Even though this hand has a lot of playing strength, bidding 2♣ game forcing and then supporting hearts is an overbid. Unfortunately, every other call is a bigger misdescription.

So, playing normal opening bids, you have little choice but to bid 2♣.

A long time ago I picked up a gadget from a short Bridge World Article. It has not come up yet, but this hand is close to fitting into the bid.

If you hold top honor third in partner's trump suit and 6 solid in either minor, you bid a forcing 1NT followed by 4 of your solid minor over any rebid at or below 2 of partner's major suit. Therefore, holding:

xx Kxx xx AKQxxx

1♥ - 1NT (forcing)
2X - 4♣

Where X is hearts, diamonds or clubs.

While you might say that you can describe this hand with 2♣ followed by a heart raise, most are saying that they would do the same with the hand in this thread. And the hands are quite different.

Since it is unlikely that you are using this sequence for any other purpose, it is worth considering.

[Elianna]

I don't know if it matters, but my honors in clubs were AJ I believe, not KQ.