[awm]

Perhaps the more interesting question on this hand is not the first round bid, but what to do later. Essentially regardless of your first call, LHO will bid 4♠. Assuming the popular 2♣ response:

1♥ - PA - 2♣ - 4♠
PA - PA - ??

Now what? Does it depend on vulnerability? Is partner's pass forcing?

[rogerclee]

awm, on Oct 17 2008, 09:38 AM, said:

Perhaps the more interesting question on this hand is not the first round bid, but what to do later. Essentially regardless of your first call, LHO will bid 4♠. Assuming the popular 2♣ response:

1♥ - PA - 2♣ - 4♠
PA - PA - ??

Now what? Does it depend on vulnerability? Is partner's pass forcing?

Partner's made a forcing pass and advertised that his hand is more or less offensive in nature. In this context, double seems pretty unreasonable.

I would bid 5♣ at IMPs for sure. At matchpoints this is really brutal, and 5♥ seems more normal to me, but I have no experience in these kinds of decisions and admit I have no idea what is right.

[TimG]

I'm pretty sure I would bid 5♥ at the table without much thought. But, wouldn't 4NT here be two places to play? We could end up in clubs when we should be in hearts, but it seems like it would get us to a reasonable strain more often than simply choosing clubs or hearts by ourselves.

[pclayton]

TimG, on Oct 17 2008, 09:11 AM, said:

But, wouldn't 4NT here be two places to play? We could end up in clubs when we should be in hearts, but it seems like it would get us to a reasonable strain more often than simply choosing clubs or hearts by ourselves.

This is how I would interpret 4N.

I would never double, but I'd probably sit for a x.

[jdonn]

awm, on Oct 17 2008, 11:38 AM, said:

Perhaps the more interesting question on this hand is not the first round bid, but what to do later. Essentially regardless of your first call, LHO will bid 4♠. Assuming the popular 2♣ response:

1♥ - PA - 2♣ - 4♠
PA - PA - ??

Now what? Does it depend on vulnerability? Is partner's pass forcing?

Partner's pass is forcing, and 4NT seems like a good idea.

[rogerclee]

jdonn, on Oct 17 2008, 11:08 AM, said:

awm, on Oct 17 2008, 11:38 AM, said:

Perhaps the more interesting question on this hand is not the first round bid, but what to do later. Essentially regardless of your first call, LHO will bid 4♠. Assuming the popular 2♣ response:

1♥ - PA - 2♣ - 4♠
PA - PA - ??

Now what? Does it depend on vulnerability? Is partner's pass forcing?

Partner's pass is forcing, and 4NT seems like a good idea.

I'll concede that 4NT is better than 5♥, since this will get us to hearts when it is better than clubs more often than the other way around.

Edit: Nah I'm a 4N believer now.

[Apollo81]

I cannot imagine stopping short of 4♥ on this hand. To me, that means I have to respond 2♣, as any other call distorts my hand.

If partner passed LHO's 4♠, I would bid 4NT or 5♣ depending on my valuation of partner's ability to read a bid like 4NT.

[gnasher]

Codo, on Oct 17 2008, 01:43 PM, said:

I think it is umlikely that this bidding is my main problem, but how do you take out the double after
1♥ (pass) 2 ♣ (4♠)
x?

I guess you want to bid 5 Heart to show your support at now?
And pd shall have a good idea from your hand and does know hwen to pass and when to bid 6?

Same is true after f.e.
1♥ (pass) 2 ♣  (2♠)  pass  (4♠) ? You will bid 5 Heart but this is far from perfect either.

I'd bid 4NT in either of these auctions. My second choice would be 5♣. One of the reasons for responding 2♣ is that 5♣ will often play better than 5♥, so I definitely wouldn't bid something as committal as 5♥.

[Codo]

gnasher, on Oct 18 2008, 08:51 AM, said:

I'd bid 4NT in either of these auctions. My second choice would be 5♣. One of the reasons for responding 2♣ is that 5♣ will often play better than 5♥, so I definitely wouldn't bid something as committal as 5♥.

Okay and your pd never bids 5 Club with Axx,KQJxxx,Ax,xx because he plays you for the minors after you bid 4 NT?

[gnasher]

Codo, on Oct 18 2008, 11:38 AM, said:

Okay and your pd never bids 5 Club with Axx,KQJxxx,Ax,xx because he plays you for the minors after you bid 4 NT?

My partner wouldn't have doubled 4♠ on the first sequence, and wouldn't have passed over 2♠ on the second sequence. In any case, I'm not sure that 5♥ is clearly better than 5♣.

The problem you mention does exist, of course, just not in the examples you gave. However, I think the risk of reaching an inferior 5♣ is easily counterbalanced by the improved chances of getting to 5♣ rather than 5♥ when it's right, and of bidding a good slam.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2008-October-18, 06:04

[Codo]

gnasher, on Oct 18 2008, 09:00 PM, said:

Codo, on Oct 18 2008, 11:38 AM, said:

Okay and your pd never bids 5 Club with Axx,KQJxxx,Ax,xx because he plays you for the minors after you bid 4 NT?

My partner wouldn't have doubled 4♠ on the first sequence, and wouldn't have passed over 2♠ on the second sequence. In any case, I'm not sure that 5♥ is clearly better than 5♣.

The problem you mention does exist, of course, just not in the examples you gave. However, I think the risk of reaching an inferior 5♣ is easily counterbalanced by the improved chances of getting to 5♣ rather than 5♥ when it's right, and of bidding a good slam.

Maybe looking at the internal bidding had helped me.

[benlessard]

Its a quirk but here it is.
MP red vs White.

Kxx
Kxxxx
Ax
Kxx

VS

x
AJx
KQJxxx
xxx

1H-----(pass)------2D-----(2S)
pass---(3S)--------4H-----(4S)
X

You were red vs W. 4Sx making 4 and 5Hx (however im not sure how they manage to X) down 2/3 were bad but fairly common results, -420 is a pretty good score for NS. West didnt have a hand good enough to overcall 3S so if a sleepy south made just a limit raise 3H/4H would have won the jackpot.

Quote

I cannot imagine stopping short of 4♥ on this hand. To me, that means I have to respond 2♣, as any other call distorts my hand.

This is thinking in a box, the big picture is the score you expect if it goes.

1H------3H (good limit)
???????

VS the score you expect if it goes

1H------2C (GF)
?????

Its like opening 1M with a hand strong enough to open 2C, you expect that even if stopping short of game might be dreadful the upside of opening 1M vs the downside of opening 2C are compensating.

[effervesce]

Bump. So what happened?

[Elianna]

This was my hand. Adam wasn't playing.

I bid 5H. My partner bid 6H. Doubled down 2.

I don't pay attention when partner declares, but I believe that we were missing the KQTx of hearts. I can try to find out his hand, but I doubt that he'll remember.