[pdmunro]

The bidding sequence:
W - N - E - S
1S 2H 2S 3H
?

What do 3S and X by W mean in this sequence?

I think SAYC is
3S = to play (competing); &
X = penalty

Am I correct?

Is there any way to invite to 4S?
Do some play X = invite to 4S?
Is this a special agreement?

Peter

[luke warm]

i like to play that 3♠ here shows either an extra trump or a distributional reason, such as a stiff heart... i like an x here to show no extra trump, no stiff heart, and a stronger hand than my bidding thus far would indicate... a pass shows neither of the above

if partner pulls the x to 3♠, i take it as an offensive hand and won't necessarily raise to game...

if i pass, partner bids 3♠ with an extra trump or some other reason (stiff heart, for example), doubles if his hand is stronger than thus far indicated, and passes otherwise

this is a dangerous way to play, especially at imps, so i might tone it down then

[paulg]

My SAYC booklet does not get this far into the auction, but my guess is that double would probably be penalties.

Many tournament players would play double as a game try here, with 3♠ being non-invitational. I'd regard this as the best use of double on the grounds of frequency.

Paul

[Flame]

I play that 3sp is to play (not inviting) but double is cooperative D which is like inviting spade but p can leave it doubled. this is only when their bid is one level under ours, if for ex we had spade and their suit was diamond i would bid 3h to invite and the double was to penalty (still parnter can pull it out to 4sp with the right hand).
even that i play double on heart to invite spade, i would still prefer it not to be tottally offesive meaning i woudnt bid it with void and probebly not with a singleton heart, doublton or 3 times are the normal for this double of 3h, while double of 3d or 3c would be more like 4 card or 3 nice ones.
if i got an offensive invitation and they bid 3h i will just shoot to 4sp and hope for the best.

[pdmunro]

Answering my own question, after reading further about the topic.

For the the bidding sequence:
W - N - E - S
1S 2H 2S 3H
?

It seems SAYC is
3S = to play (competing); &
X = penalty

To play
X = invite
is called a Maximal Overcall Double.
"Modern Bridge Conventions" Root & Pavlicek

I believe it would need partner's prior agreement.

Thanks all for your advice.
I have been looking for this answer for some time.

There is an earlier post on this question in Beg & Int Bridge Disc.
Sorry, I don't know how to link to it.
Search "MAXIMAL DOUBLES". That should find it.

Peter

[Shrike]

You are exactly right about the SAYC meaning, and the maximal double. I believe the majority of serious tournament players would not play the X as penalty, but without discussion that's what it is.

Now, consider 1S (2D) 2S (3D). In SAYC, double is penalty and 3S is competitive as before. Playing maximal doubles the usual way, X is not a maximal double here, because there is room for a game try bid; the normal tournament treatment would be that X is penalty, 3S competitive, and 3H a generic game try (not necessarily with heart cards).

There is a decent argument for playing double as maximal even when there is room for a bid, but that's an unusual treatment.

[1eyedjack]

In this situation I usually play:
X = penalty
3S = Weak(ish) - but likely to have a defence to 4H
4S = Game try :-)

[Shrike]

1eyedjack, on Apr 12 2004, 03:50 AM, said:

In this situation I usually play:
X = penalty
3S = Weak(ish) - but likely to have a defence to 4H
4S = Game try :-)

At IMPs, especially red/white, this is not a bad treatment. In such situations all game tries are forcing anyway. Still, penalty double may not be all that useful, so how about using it as a generic slam invitation. . .

(Even better -- a two-way bid, either a slam invite or a game bid that does not want to invite a sacrifice. Now we're rolling!)

[Fluffy]

I don´t know in sayc, sayc is a very incomplete system in my opinion, consense in spain, where 2/1 and french standard are the most played is every 'high' level (being a high level player in Spain isn´t hard) player plays X as invitational, more like quantitative, have to remark most people don´t play it as forcing at all.

We don´t call in anyway, just X=limit values .

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

----------------------------------------

Hi Peter!

Peter: "To play
X = invite
is called a Maximal Overcall Double.
"Modern Bridge Conventions" Root & Pavlicek

I believe it would need partner's prior agreement."

If on your p skill is advanced or better and if on his profile is not wrote "I don't play transfers" , you can use max dbl without prior agreement

Misho

[Shibboleth]

Should i try 4H (cue bid) to show my extras or ask and for game try in this sequence and leave 4S for some weakish hands in Sayc?Because after 4H if partner has some extra values and have slam interest he can go on ,or bid 4S as sign off.

[Flame]

Shibboleth, on Apr 19 2004, 09:13 AM, said:

Should i try 4H (cue bid) to show my extras or ask and for game try in this sequence and leave 4S for some weakish hands in Sayc?Because after 4H if partner has some extra values  and have slam interest he can go on ,or bid 4S as sign off.

I prefer to play 4h as a general bid rather then something about the H suit.
4H shows a hand that is strong enough to make 4 spade but have some diffence, as opposite to 4 spade which is a more offensive bid. partner will need this information if the opponents keep on bidding and he will be in a good place to double them or bid on.

[Trpltrbl]

3♠ is competing.
X= Gametry, pd can pass.

Mike