[jdonn]

Lobowolf, on Oct 8 2008, 06:00 PM, said:

I'd still take the "under" on an even money bet on whether most Americans had heard of F & F.

As for Alan & Oliver, maybe he just remembered Alan's name and not Oliver's.  If he'd said Oliver, I'm sure you'd see the assertion on various blogs that he was suggesting that African Americans, in particular, needed the government to intervene, or they wouldn't be able to keep their homes.

OH COME ON! No you wouldn't see anything like that. No one would have written diddly if he had replied to the person who asked the question. You are reaaaaally grasping at straws.

You really have this habit of, when pointed out that a Republican did or said something bad, assuming that either doing or saying the opposite would have been perceived as bad, or assuming that a Democrat in his place would have done the same thing.

[Lobowolf]

jdonn, on Oct 8 2008, 06:35 PM, said:

You really have this habit of, when pointed out that a Republican did or said something bad, assuming that either doing or saying the opposite would have been perceived as bad, or assuming that a Democrat in his place would have done the same thing.

That's true. It's borne of experience.


I also have the habit of, when pointed out that a Democrat did or said something bad, assuming that either doing or saying the opposite would have been perceived as bad, or assuming that a Republican in his place would have done the same thing. This habit doesn't show up as much on the BBO forums as the one you mentioned, because anti-Republican posts are much more prevalent than anti-Democrat posts.

[y66]

You don't hear people use the expression "that one" very often.

Most people would say "that guy" or "that asshole" or worse.

The only time I've heard "that one" before also involved a man of about the same age as McCain whose anger had also gotten the best of him. Which is how I took it. Not that offensive. Not cool under fire either.

p.s. I see that Obama's odds in Las Vegas are now 2-9 (win 2 on a bet of 9). Yesterday they were 1-4. Glad I got my bet in early. Thanks mickyb.

[Lobowolf]

y66, on Oct 8 2008, 08:08 PM, said:

You don't hear people use the expression "that one" very often.

Most people would say "that guy" or "that asshole" or worse.

The only time I've heard "that one" before also involved a man of about the same age as McCain whose anger had also gotten the best of him. Which is how I took it. Not that offensive. Not cool under fire either.

p.s. I see that Obama's odds in Las Vegas are now 2-9 (win 2 on a bet of 9). Yesterday they were 1-4. Glad I got my bet in early. Thanks mickyb.

Yeah, I've been rating McCain's chances a bit higher than the oddsmakers posted lines, but I'd put him at under 30% now and running short of time for a comeback. Maybe 7-2 now on my internal scorecard. He's losing ground (came off worse in the debate IMO, and the market ain't improving) AND running low on time.

[blackshoe]

Lobowolf, on Oct 8 2008, 07:47 PM, said:

This habit doesn't show up as much on the BBO forums as the one you mentioned, because anti-Republican posts are much more prevalent than anti-Democrat posts.

I suspect that's because the Democrats have not been the highly-visible "bad guys" for all the ills Americans perceive in their government lately. If we get a Democratic President for the next eight years, and a Democratic Congress, I suspect the trend will reverse.

[Al_U_Card]

Seems to me that a progressive, intelligent president with a clear plan, supported by a legislature that was given a similar mandate is able to do wonders....and not just things to wonder about...

[cherdano]

Lobowolf, on Oct 8 2008, 05:00 PM, said:

I'd still take the "under" on an even money bet on whether most Americans had heard of F & F.

I guess I should have pushed you to put money on whether the actual questioner had heard of F & F
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/200...09/1523335.aspx

Quote

7. How did I feel about Sen. McCain stating “You probably never heard of Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac before this.”
Well Senator, I actually did. I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person. I have a bachelor degree in Political Science from Tennessee State, so I try to keep myself up to date with current affairs. I have a Master degree in Legal Studies from Southern Illinois University, a few years in law school, and I am currently pursuing a Master in Public Administration from the University of Memphis. In defense of the Senator from Arizona I would say he is an older guy, and may have made an underestimation of my age. Honest mistake. However, it could be because I am a young African-American male. Whatever the case may be it was somewhat condescending regardless of my age to make an assumption regarding whether I was knowledgeable about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

I stand by my bet that McCain's implicit racial stereotypes showed in his response (well, if there was a way to verify that).
[Btw, having implicit racial stereotypes != being racist]

[kenberg]

I didn't see it as being racist at all, just inept. And it doesn't matter how many people have heard of F and F or even whether the guy who asked the question knew of them before the meltdown.

For example, I would be hard pressed to tell you the difference between Fannie and Freddie. I knew once but I have forgotten. But that's for me to say. I don't mind saying it, but it is my choice. If I am invited to ask, on national tv, my question I would not take kindly to the candidate speculating on what I do or do not know. I wouldn't go ape over it, but I regard it as socially inept. Maybe not the worst quality a pesident can have, but it's not a plus either.

[Lobowolf]

kenberg, on Oct 9 2008, 08:09 PM, said:

For example, I would be hard pressed to tell you the difference between Fannie and Freddie. I knew once but I have forgotten. But that's for me to say. I don't mind saying it, but it is my choice. If I am invited to ask, on national tv, my question I would not take kindly to the candidate speculating on what I do or do not know. I wouldn't go ape over it, but I regard it as socially inept. Maybe not the worst quality a pesident can have, but it's not a plus either.

I agree, but it's more like, "You probably aren't familiar with trigonometry" than it is like "You probably don't know how to add," which is patently insulting.

I guess what I mean is general terms is that my gut tells me that the more likely it is that a reasonably aware person knows something, the more insulting it is when you assume he doesn't.

[matmat]

I can't make up my mind whether "that one" showed more disdain or anger...

[smiffy]

cherdano, on Oct 8 2008, 06:10 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Oct 8 2008, 05:00 PM, said:

I'd still take the "under" on an even money bet on whether most Americans had heard of F & F.

As for Alan & Oliver, maybe he just remembered Alan's name and not Oliver's.  If he'd said Oliver, I'm sure you'd see the assertion on various blogs that he was suggesting that African Americans, in particular, needed the government to intervene, or they wouldn't be able to keep their homes.

"Most" Americans aren't interested in asking a question at a presidential debate either. And even if I would bet more than even money that X doesn't know Y, then saying "I am sure you don't know Y" directly to X is still patronizing.

Anyway, I am sure attributing lack of knowledge is part of what psychologist call implicit racial stereotypes. I would put more than even money that McCain does have implicit racial stereotypes. Well, that's a rather easy bet as almost everyone has implicit racial stereotypes, but I would also think that it showed in this conversation.

I found McCain's response quite outrageous. If only he had said "might not have heard of..." instead of "propably never heard of...". I don't know if it's racism or mere elitism or just unbelievable clumsiness. But i know that i want neither of these in the president of the most powerful country in the world.
Also i found Oliver Clark to be quite a distinguished person, almost to the point of sophistication. After McCains remark i just wondered who this guy was talking to - surely not Mr. Clark himself who clearly was not the kind of person to address in such a manner - ....and just assumed he intended it for the whole audience.
The debate was translated (into german) simultaneously so sadly lots seems to be lost in translation.

[matmat]

smiffy, on Oct 9 2008, 09:52 PM, said:

The debate was translated (into german) simultaneously so sadly lots seems to be lost in translation.

it sounded great in the original Klingon.

[Al_U_Card]

Sometimes, when you find pronouncing something distasteful, you will substitute a neutral form.

Based on what I saw and heard, the "conspiratorial" tone (lowered his voice and turned his head) that he used was intended to make Obama the "outsider" and the participants the "insiders". At least that is what I inferred.

The tactics of fear-mongering are many and nefarious. Even the semi-unintentional ones.

[Lobowolf]

I've been called "that one" and seen people called "that one" very occasionally at bridge clubs, by older people usually in relation to something perceived as outlandish, e.g. "You know who found a 3 club bid with this hand? That one!" I think ascribing a racial tone to it a stretch (though Cherdano's "implicit racial stereotypes" is always a possibility; having said that, I think it's also a possibility that "implicit racial stereotypes" may be causing some people to see the original comment as racial). I definitely don't think it was anger-related; the point he was making in the debate was a surprise/irony point. It was about a bill that intuitively you might think he'd have supported and Obama would have opposed (or vice versa), and the actual situation was reversed. It wasn't a contentious post.

Michelle Obama, fwiw, apparently found the comment neither racially motivated nor particularly offensive, despite the repeated efforts of Larry King to get her to say otherwise.

[jdonn]

Lobowolf, on Oct 10 2008, 11:34 AM, said:

Michelle Obama, fwiw, apparently found the comment neither racially motivated nor particularly offensive, despite the repeated efforts of Larry King to get her to say otherwise.

Of course she is never going to say so. They can only lose at this point by being anything but cordial.

[Lobowolf]

That's definitely true. On the other hand, I didn't get the impression that she was lying.

[pigpenz]

cherdano, on Oct 8 2008, 05:14 PM, said:

There is little doubt that McCain despises Obama.

speaking of McCain, the Clintons havent been too active lately on the campaign trail.

[Al_U_Card]

pigpenz, on Oct 10 2008, 02:21 PM, said:

cherdano, on Oct 8 2008, 05:14 PM, said:

There is little doubt that McCain despises Obama.

speaking of McCain, the Clintons havent been too active lately on the campaign trail.

He likely despises anyone that stands in his way now that he has sold his soul to the (Rovian) devil...B&H know who is calling the shots btw...

[barmar]

cherdano, on Oct 9 2008, 08:18 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Oct 8 2008, 05:00 PM, said:

I'd still take the "under" on an even money bet on whether most Americans had heard of F & F.

I guess I should have pushed you to put money on whether the actual questioner had heard of F & F
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/200...09/1523335.aspx

Quote

7. How did I feel about Sen. McCain stating “You probably never heard of Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac before this.”
Well Senator, I actually did. I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person. I have a bachelor degree in Political Science from Tennessee State, so I try to keep myself up to date with current affairs. I have a Master degree in Legal Studies from Southern Illinois University, a few years in law school, and I am currently pursuing a Master in Public Administration from the University of Memphis. In defense of the Senator from Arizona I would say he is an older guy, and may have made an underestimation of my age. Honest mistake. However, it could be because I am a young African-American male. Whatever the case may be it was somewhat condescending regardless of my age to make an assumption regarding whether I was knowledgeable about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

I stand by my bet that McCain's implicit racial stereotypes showed in his response (well, if there was a way to verify that).
[Btw, having implicit racial stereotypes != being racist]

Do you think that "you" in the response referred to the questioner? I assumed that he was addressing the audience in general (including all the TV watchers), not the individual who asked the questioner. This was a public debate, not a private conversation, and he was making a speech. Hyperbole is a common rhetorical device, I don't think the comment about not having heard of F&F was intended to be taken literally. It's just a way of suggesting how public discourse has changed significantly as a result of recent conditions. F&F weren't in most people's minds before, now we hear about them all the time.

I'm no fan of McCain, but I just see this as typical speechifying, nothing to take offense at.