[bridgeboy]

Imps, all Vul


You hold :
♠10 ♥KQJ ♦A9xxxx ♣109x

Partner opens 1S and RHO overcalls 2C.

You play Negative dbls and Forcing Free bids with 2/1 GF.

What is your bid here?

Your next bid if Parter respond 2H to your initial action?

Please explain and Thanks in advance

[inquiry]

I bid 2♦.

Ok, the problem you have is if you partner fits for ♦, you could easily have slam or grand slam. Give your partner a reasonable miniumum like this and 7♦ is virtually laydown.

♠Axxxx ♥Axxx ♥Kxxx ♣void

So pass is out of the question.

On the other hand, if partner is some yucky 5-3-2-3, or 6-3-1-3 we might not be a able to make anything. So bidding 2♦ now then a forcing 3♣ bid is also eliminated. I would never consider such a cue-bid with this one.

So that leaves a negative double versus 2♦. I think the slam possibility makes 2♦ (forcing) a clear winner. I am not proud of the quality of my suit, I am not proud of the lack of ♠ fit, but if partner has ♦ my extra length will help win a lot of tricks. And besides, over a a negative double partner might bid a three card ♥ suit. This doesn't usually stop me from making negative doubles, especially since I have such good three card suit as I don't mind playing 4-3 fits. However, when you have a short suit in the opponenets suit that you will be ruffing it is usually best in the hand with 3 trumps.

I wouldn't double and pass 2♥ nor bid 2♦ and then pass 2♥, not at imps. There has to be a chance for game, which is why I like 2♦ then raise ♥. If partner now raises ♦, we might even try 6♦ after all.

Ben

[the hog]

2D initially.
As we are playing -ve free bids, pd's 2H bid really shows a minimum opener and no D fit, posssibly even a 5-4-1-3 shape. I am passing now, I can't see great prospects here. With D support pd would raise.

[mishovnbg]

2♦,3♦-dream for game is better than dream for perfect score

Spoiler

-------------------

Misho, Master of dreams

[Flame]

bridgeboy, on Apr 10 2004, 07:53 PM, said:

You play Negative dbls and Forcing Free bids with 2/1 GF.

Didnt understand if 2D here is GF or just 10+
if its 10+ i will bid it, if its GF i will only double since i dont think i have a game if p is minimum.
On the 2h rebid ill bid 3h on both options.

[inquiry]

Flame, on Apr 11 2004, 09:46 AM, said:

bridgeboy, on Apr 10 2004, 07:53 PM, said:

You play Negative dbls and Forcing Free bids with 2/1 GF.

Didnt understand if 2D here is GF or just 10+
if its 10+ i will bid it, if its GF i will only double since i dont think i have a game if p is minimum.
On the 2h rebid ill bid 3h on both options.

I don't think he meant 2♦ was game force, but rather, one round furce.

[luke warm]

bridgeboy, on Apr 11 2004, 02:53 AM, said:

Imps, all Vul


You hold :
♠10 ♥KQJ ♦A9xxxx ♣109x

Partner opens 1S and RHO overcalls 2C.

You play Negative dbls and Forcing Free bids with 2/1 GF.

What is your bid here?

Your next bid if Parter respond 2H to your initial action?

Please explain and Thanks in advance

i think i'd bid 2♦, given the system you laid out... but i have a question or two

why is forcing free bid superior to negative free bid? imagine that neg double is either a normal one OR a game force, and imagine that 2♦ here shows 5-11 or so, 5+ card suit (neg free bid system)... isn't that what you have?

i'm just not sure forcing free bid is a better way to play, without resulting the hands

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Apr 11 2004, 12:30 AM, said:

2D initially.
As we are playing -ve free bids, pd's 2H bid really shows a minimum opener and no D fit, posssibly even a 5-4-1-3 shape. I am passing now, I can't see great prospects here. With D support pd would raise.

Somehow I don't think making a forcing bid, and then passing partner's new suit, especially vulnerable at imps, where partner will never imagine that his 2♥ would be passed, even if it could be passed.

Thus, I don't thinks...

1♠-(2♣)-2♦-(P)
2♥-all pass

is an option.

I have much more sympathy for Misho's
1♠-(2♣)-2♦-(P)
2♥-(P) - 3♦

This bid is right on hcp, right on number or ♥'s, but wrong on allowing your partner to evaluate the degree of fit. First, the ♦ are too weak, and second the ♥ are too strong. In full realization of the downside of raise ♥'s (4-3 fit with forcing game through long turmp hand if partner is short in ♣. However, against that, 3♥ here is very descriptive.

1) Non-forcing hand
2) Only 3♥ (non-forcing hand with 4♥ would have made neg double)
3) Good ♥, short ♠.
4) No ♣ stopper

Maybe 3♥ is limit. Think about hands partner can have without a ♣ stopper, and without ♦ support... The answer is basically solid ♠ and four ♥ to ace, something like...

♠AKQxx ♥ATxx ♦x ♣xxx, and 3♥ or even 4♥ might be right anyway. And if partner was bidding out his distribution, with 4♥ and three ♦? Over 3♥, you will be in great shape. This is true of course rather or not you rebid 3♦ or 3♥.

Ben

[luis]

IMO 2d is "forcing but doesn't promise a rebid" so when I bid 2d I can pass if pd
a. Rebids 2s
b. Supports my suit with 3d
c. Bids 2NT

So I do bid 2d and if pd bids 2h that is forcing. So over 2h I bid 3d since I don't have any other option.

Luis

[the hog]

"Somehow I don't think making a forcing bid, and then passing partner's new suit, especially vulnerable at imps, where partner will never imagine that his 2♥ would be passed, even if it could be passed. "


I assumed 2D was not forcing Ben. If this is the case then there is no way that pd should expect another bid over 2H. eg what would opener do with Axxxx AQxxx void Qxx . Do you want to play 3D here? Or worse on the given hand, what about a 5404 shape?
Opener is clearly signalling a misfit. This is one of the problems with -ve free bids, that development of constractive auctions can be difficult.
Perhaps a better solution is to play 2N over the neg free bid as some sort of general force.

[Free]

For me, 2♦ is non-forcing. The question is: do you consider your hand as forcing or not? You have a long suit, and a full control in ♥, but that's it... The fact that you have only 7 losers should be enough to make a forcing bid!

[mishovnbg]

luke warm, on Apr 11 2004, 05:21 PM, said:

bridgeboy, on Apr 11 2004, 02:53 AM, said:

Imps, all Vul


You hold :
♠10 ♥KQJ ♦A9xxxx ♣109x

Partner opens 1S and RHO overcalls 2C.

You play Negative dbls and Forcing Free bids with 2/1 GF.

What is your bid here?

Your next bid if Parter respond 2H to your initial action?

Please explain and Thanks in advance

i think i'd bid 2♦, given the system you laid out... but i have a question or two

why is forcing free bid superior to negative free bid? imagine that neg double is either a normal one OR a game force, and imagine that 2♦ here shows 5-11 or so, 5+ card suit (neg free bid system)... isn't that what you have?

i'm just not sure forcing free bid is a better way to play, without resulting the hands

Spoiler

---------------------------------------------

Hi Jimmy!

Spoiler

-------

You are not alone in your thoughts, most of bulgarian players use to play negative free bids, include some great players like Boian(PPilot). The meaning of above bid for him is: "forcing if you like... ". Their reasons of such play are several:

• 1. After opponent intervention expecting range of hcp is for NF bids and they come often unlike forcing bids.
  
• 2. They helps to say to partner what exactly you have, unlike negative doubles and is sure they help to find right contract at right level unlike them, esp if with unexpected minor 1 suiter or even with weak hand with major 1 suiter.
  
• 3. Sometimes RF bid lead to overbid, due to pass is unavalable, when you have exactly hand for already reached level.

Spoiler

--------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[Shrike]

2D F but not GF means it doesn't promise a rebid, but aren't you worth one anyway? 3H should be enough, but passing isn't.

Incidentally, I don't think this is a least of evils situation -- you have your bids. You certainly would like a fourth heart for your rebid, but your failure to make a negative double says you might well not have it. If 2H is the limit you will feel bad, but that isn't happening often. If 3D is the limit I'll be surprised.

[bridgeboy]

Thanks all for replying... I guess the general consensus is that 2D rebidding 3D is acceptable. Of course, there are many other interesting considerations with other bids. Incidentally, our agreement is that 2D is forcing but does not promise a rebid. I see there are many styles around and i think it will take another thread to find out which way of "positive freebids" are best and yet another on "Positve against Negative Freebids"

For all the posters.. Here is the complete hand:

---

I chose to Dbl directly (wrongly as it seems). We missed 3NT cold but cannot find an educated way to get there. It seems to me going by this forum's discussion, 4H is more likely a game to be reached. Thanks all again

[Fluffy]

Isn´t it lovelly when your methods solve problems like this one?

When I dont play negative free bid 2♦ is forcing troug oppener´s suit rebid (2♠) at least, wich means here 2♥ would be forcing, while the rest would not.

[inquiry]

bridgeboy, on Apr 12 2004, 03:46 AM, said:

I chose to Dbl directly (wrongly as it seems). We missed 3NT cold but cannot find an educated way to get there. It seems to me going by this forum's discussion, 4H is more likely a game to be reached. Thanks all again

Hmmm... Let's see, after my choice (not in your options, so I picked "other"), 3NT is automatic.

1♠-2♣-2♦-P
2♥-P-3♥-P
3NT-all pass

I refer you back to the comments about 3♥....

1) not forcing
2) 3 card support (since no negative dble to start with with non-force hand)
3) short spade, good hearts

With the north hand given, I would try 3NT on this auction. It is impossible to find out about the ♣T for this 3NT bid, but you know your partner is short in ♠, and has only 3♥s, so you have some hope his ♣ are long enough to help for NT or at least help cut communication between their hands. Educated? No. But the 3♥ rebid here gives you the best chance to find the right spot, at least imho. At least it would have worked well on this hand.

Ben

[irg20]

Sorry I'm kind of late to this thread.

I think I'm in favour of doubling first and bidding 3D over partner's response. This suggests two things in my mind:

1) Values for the three level

2) Interest in playing contracts other than diamonds (else I would have bid 2D (F1) followed by 3D (NF))

It also has the merit of not suggesting better diamonds than I have.

With the actual hand given, over 3D partner has a 3NT bid.

Best wishes,

Ian

[Free]

So what happened when you Doubled?? imo bidding goes like:

1♠ - 2♣ - Dbl - pass
2♥ - pass - 3♦ - pass
3NT...

no? Or did your partner rebid 3♥ perhaps?

[Trpltrbl]

2♦ and after pd's 2♥, I bid 3♥. This should not be on a 4 card suit, since no neg X. Therefore 3♥ should be on decent suit, and willing to play 4♥.

Mike