[jdonn]

Stephen Tu, on Oct 7 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

What is the expected gain in bidding 2nt and burying spade fits?

The fact that you can use 2♠ for something else. This wouldn't really matter, except the problem is if you use 1NT 2♣ 2♥ 2♠ as invitational with four spades, you can hardly use 1NT 2♣ 2♦ 2♠ as anything at all (unless you also want to use that as invitational with four spades, which seems utterly pointless), and you are wasting a very low and potentially useful bid. So really what you have to weigh is:

Playing in 2NT instead of 2♠ with a minimum 1NT opener that has 4-4 in the majors opposite an invitational responder that has 4 spades and < 4 hearts

vs.

Getting use out of 1NT 2♣ 2♦ 2♠, which should also be useful on 1NT 2♣ 2♥ 2♠

To me the second option is clearly better, of course depending what you use 2♠ as. I can think of at least two things I really like, and a third I don't mind.

[mike777]

1nt=2c
2h=2s invite with 4 spades.

1nt=2c
2d=2s=invite with 4h and 5s.


1nt=2c
2d=2nt invite, may or maynot have 4 card major.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Oct 7 2008, 05:08 PM, said:

1nt=2c
2h=2s invite with 4 spades.

1nt=2c
2d=2s=invite with 4h and 5s.


1nt=2c
2d=2nt invite, may or maynot have 4 card major.

Yes you at least fill the hole that way, but now you are using both bids, each for a very specific range and a very specific shape, and all when you could have not had the system available and probably done just as well most of the time. I think people can do better.

[Stephen Tu]

If you want to use 1nt-2c-2h-2s as something artificial, then fine, but then you are going way off topic IMO and going to a general "what system should I play over 1nt" discussion. Clearly the original poster is reserving 2s for 4 cd spade invitational and isn't using it for something else.

He was suggesting:
2s = 4s inv
2nt = inv, may or may not have major (rather than deny major)

and asking which should be chosen given this agreement.

My comment was in that context, I don't see any point in not bidding 2s if it shows 4s inv, which is roughly what you have. Playing 2s as artificial clearly isn't possible without extensive discussion, and if it was artificial then probably this hand wouldn't be a candidate for that bid and OP wouldn't ask what people would be choosing.

[jdonn]

Who said artificial? It's arguably more common, or at least very common, to make it an unbalanced invitation with 5 spades, which not only lets you stop lower when you have that hand but lets partner make better decisions when you transfer and bid 2NT.

Anyway you asked a question (rhetorically I guess) so I answered it. The expected gain from not using 2♠ as four spades invitational is that you can use it as something else (which can also translate to other similar bids). I don't find that off topic.

I think the problem here is I took the original question more to mean "is 2♠ four spades invitational undiscussed" but you took it as "what do you bid if 2♠ is four spades invitational?", which doesn't make sense to me since the answer to the second question is quite obvious.

[nige1]

fachiru, on Oct 6 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Your expert partner opens 1nt [15-17] as dealer at IMPs/red and I'll force a 2 ♣ stayman bid on your hand.  Partner responds 2 ♥, which does not deny spades.
What is your next bid if you had to pick from the 3 options given and why?

---

IMO 2♠ = 10, 2N = 6.
If partner has 4 ♠ as well as 4 ♥ then he has a doubleton so ♠ is likely to be worth an extra trick and may be safer.

[InTime]

Whatever system you play (4s transfers or not), 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2S should indicate invitational and 4 spades, 1NT - 2C - 2H - 2NT invitational without 4 spades and 1NT - 2C - 2H - 3NT game-going values with 4 spades. Otherwise you would have bid 1NT - 3NT and get it over with. This is if you don't play 2S/2NT as a sort of conventional bid as previously discussed. This makes it simple strait forward bridge (Why play in 2NT when you have a 4-4 fit in spades?, why give opposition more information by playing around?). Therefore I strongly feel in standard bridge 2S is the correct bid.

[ochinko]

Psyches aside, I don't see why one would go through Stayman without a 4CM, so 2NT clearly invites with 4 spades, the same way as 3NT gives opener the chance to pass or correct to 4♠.

As for the unused 2♠ bid I would prefer it to be a minor suit Stayman with a strong enough hand to search for a slam.

[mike777]

ochinko, on Oct 8 2008, 08:32 AM, said:

Psyches aside, I don't see why one would go through Stayman without a 4CM, so 2NT clearly invites with 4 spades, the same way as 3NT gives opener the chance to pass or correct to 4♠.

It allows you to play:

1nt=2c
2any=3c or 3d as natural and game force. NOw opener can show other values at a low level.

It also allows you to play 1nt=2nt as something other than natural and invite.

For me relay to 3c as either sign off in clubs or 3suited slam try..

[InTime]

mike777, on Oct 7 2008, 05:08 PM, said:

1nt=2c
2h=2s invite with 4 spades.

1nt=2c
2d=2s=invite with 4h and 5s.


1nt=2c
2d=2nt invite, may or maynot have 4 card major.

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.
If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

[ArtK78]

InTime, on Oct 8 2008, 12:41 PM, said:

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.
If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

You are playing Garbage Stayman. That is not uncommon, but it is not standard, and you should not assume that your partner is playing it.

[InTime]

ArtK78, on Oct 8 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

InTime, on Oct 8 2008, 12:41 PM, said:

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.
If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

You are playing Garbage Stayman. That is not uncommon, but it is not standard, and you should not assume that your partner is playing it.

If you play transfers, this should be standard. It cannot be invitational or GF. If invitational or GF you should use transfers. Not playing transfers, this sequence is invitational. According to me nothing to do with Garbage Stayman.

[mike777]

InTime, on Oct 8 2008, 12:41 PM, said:

mike777, on Oct 7 2008, 05:08 PM, said:

1nt=2c
2h=2s invite with 4 spades.

1nt=2c
2d=2s=invite with 4h and 5s.


1nt=2c
2d=2nt invite, may or maynot have 4 card major.

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.
If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

I am not quite sure what you are playing here. What is the auction?




"For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit."

what are you biddding with weak hands? You start with 2d?

1nt=2d
2h=2s is weak, signoff with 5h and 4s? what does opener rebid with 2-2 in the majors? or 3h and 2s?

As for this auction, again not sure what you are saying:



"If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values"


1nt=2h
2s=2nt
?

now what does opener do with 4h and two spades?
You play in 3s if opener has a minimum with 3s spades rather than 2s spades?

[BillHiggin]

If you have no more detailed agreements than 4 suit transfers (such as a pickup or very occasional partnership) then the expected meaning after 1N 2♣; 2♥ is 2♠ shows invite hand with 4 spades and 2N denies 4 spades.

If you have more detailed agreements, then you look to those.

If you want a set of agreements similar to 4 suit transfers that do not involve the "Stayman might be balanced invite with no major" issue, consider:
3♣ as transfer to ♦ either weak or GF
2N as transfer to ♣ either weak or GF
2♠ as either bal invite with no major or invite with some long minor. 2N rebid shows min and responder may correct to long minor. 3m rebid shows extras with poor (subject to agreement) doubleton.
Note that you may need to find an alternative for whatever you used 1N 3♣ to show.

[P_Marlowe]

InTime, on Oct 8 2008, 01:16 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Oct 8 2008, 01:03 PM, said:

InTime, on Oct 8 2008, 12:41 PM, said:

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.
If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

You are playing Garbage Stayman. That is not uncommon, but it is not standard, and you should not assume that your partner is playing it.

If you play transfers, this should be standard. It cannot be invitational or GF. If invitational or GF you should use transfers. Not playing transfers, this sequence is invitational. According to me nothing to do with Garbage Stayman.

Just one comment: Playing French Standard

1NT - 2C
2D - 2M

2M showes an inv. hand with 5-4, because in French
Standard hands with 5-4 in majors go via stayman,
end of discussion.

Of course you can only play this, if you dont play
Garbage Stayman, and it maybe to much to give
up for the adv. that you can distinguish hands with
inv. / gameforcing strength and 5-4 / 5-5 in the
majors.

So the point in discussion has alot to do with (not)
playing Garbage Stayman.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Playing a strong NT, there is no real need to play
Garbage Stayman at all, you can do it, but you dont
need to.

[InTime]

Sorry guys! It seems I opened a whole can of worms here. Garbage Stayman to me is where you bid 2C after partner opens 1NT and pass any reply opener makes.
So, if your answers to 2C is normal, then it should be able to fit in with any system.
If your partnership understanding is that 2C is at least invitational, then you cannot play what I am suggesting. I am playing normal stayman and transfers and my 2C is not necessarily invitational (can be also weak). With a 5-card major, I will go via transfers.
I think that is where all the confusion started.
Everything you do is anyway by partnership understanding.
Rest my case.

[helene_t]

Lobowolf, on Oct 6 2008, 10:29 PM, said:

helene_t, on Oct 6 2008, 12:13 PM, said:

I am confused. I thought it was "standard" that 2NT shows four spades while 2♠ is an idle bid to be defined by partnership (with one p I play it as invitational with five+ spades, with another p as weak with 4 spades and longer minor, with a 3rd p we play 4-way transfers so 2♠ now shows a natural 2NT response to 1NT).

Is it normal in North America that 2♠ shows an invitational hand with four spades? In that case I suppose I have to bid that.

It frees up 1NT - 2NT for bigger and better things.

Sure, but there are other ways to handle this. In the Netherlands they use
1NT-2♣
2♥-2♠*
to show the invitational hand without a 4-card major. Another solution which I play with one partner I play that
1NT-2♣
2♥*
denies spades.

Anyway, I am not arguing that
1NT-2♣
2♥-2♠*
showing an invitational hand with four spades is inferior, just wondered if it was considered standard, as it sounds exotic to me. But maybe I am the one who is exotic.

[InTime]

InTime, on Oct 8 2008, 12:41 PM, said:

mike777, on Oct 7 2008, 05:08 PM, said:

1nt=2c
2h=2s invite with 4 spades.

1nt=2c
2d=2s=invite with 4h and 5s.


1nt=2c
2d=2nt invite, may or maynot have 4 card major.

For me 1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ is a signoff indicating a 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors with a weak hand. Otherwise, you must transfer to your 5-card major ignoring the best possible fit.
If I had 5s and 4h with invitational values, I will transfer to spades and then invite with 2NT (because 3♥ will be a GF). Opener can now still bid his 4-card heart suit on route to 3♠ or 4♠. If responder realises a double fit, he should probably go to game even with invitational values.

I only now see that I made a typing error and that is also probably where all the confusion started.
What I meant was 1NT - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ or 2♠ will be a signoff in my system. I left out the 2♣
If you play 2♣ as at least invitational, you cannot use the above.
Because of this my previous msg does not made sense and therefore all the questions.
Regards

[FrancesHinden]

helene_t, on Oct 9 2008, 02:13 PM, said:

Anyway, I am not arguing that
1NT-2♣
2♥-2♠*
showing an invitational hand with four spades is inferior, just wondered if it was considered standard, as it sounds exotic to me. But maybe I am the one who is exotic.

Soon after I started playing with someone who is now my regular partner, we had the auction

1NT - 2♣
2♥ - 2♠
P

I thought 2♠ was forcing, showing an invitational hand with 4+ spades, and I thought this was standard given that we were using 2NT as a transfer to diamonds.

He thought that was being a bit exotic.

[mike777]

i am not even going to ask how an invite hand can be forcing at top level bridge.

If you say it is ok...