[Ant590]

Hi,

In the sequence (1♥) – dbl – (4♥) – 4NT, I thought that 4NT would not be to play, merely a choice of two games. Have I the right end of the stick, and how would you convince someone who disagreed (or me if you don't think it's two places).

Many thanks
Ant.

[TylerE]

Yes, it's two suited takeout. There is no hand that would wish to play 4NT that doesn't have a penalty double of 4♥.

[FrancesHinden]

It's not quite as simple as TylerE says, because a lot of people play 1H - dbl - 4H - dbl as take-out/responsive/values type rather than a strict penalty double.

It's rather a matter of utility: you are much more likely to have a hand that wants to offer a choice of two places to play, than you are to have a hand that wants to offer 4NT as a possible contract.

How likely is it that you have a hand that wants to bid a natural 4NT, given that one opponents has opening values and they have shown what is often a 10-card heart fit? yes, it's possible that you have a long minor and 10 tricks are available in NT but not in 5m, it's just very unlikely.

Against that, how likely is it that you have both minors and you want to bid over 4H, but you want to play in your best fit? If partner doubles on, say, a 4=1=5=3 distribution and you have a 1=3=4=5 it is likely to make at least one trick, possibly two tricks, difference to play in your 9-card diamond fit rather than your 8-card heart fit.

[vuroth]

It could be worse. Partner might have bid 5♦ with ♠KQJT9 ♥3 ♦Q32 ♣AQ32. Thankfully, partner realized that Blackwood made no sense.

Maybe start by discussing this sequence?
1NT X P 2NT

It should make sense to partner that 2NT can not be natural, because it's pretty much a losing proposition. That should clear the way for a discussion as to whether or not 4NT natural in the OP is also a losing proposition.

V

[FrancesHinden]

You have to be a bit careful about these 4NT bids.

While 'everyone' plays 1H x 4H 4NT as two places to play, here are some 4NT bids that I have agreed with my regular partner are natural, but your partner might think very differently:

(4C) 4NT
(4D) 4NT

(3H) x (P) 4NT (but we play 3H x 4H 4NT as two places to play)

1D (4C) 4NT

3NT (4H) 4NT

[there are others as well...]

In short, this area is a minefield once you progress from the simple "4NT is always blackwood"

[gwnn]

also 4m-p-4NT, I think there was a thread a while back and there was no consensus. Of course the disagreement with this 4NT call was KC vs natural.

[pclayton]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 7 2008, 05:50 AM, said:

You have to be a bit careful about these 4NT bids.

While 'everyone' plays 1H x 4H 4NT as two places to play, here are some 4NT bids that I have agreed with my regular partner are natural, but your partner might think very differently:

(4C) 4NT
(4D) 4NT

(3H) x (P) 4NT (but we play 3H x 4H 4NT as two places to play)

1D (4C) 4NT

3NT (4H) 4NT

[there are others as well...]

In short, this area is a minefield once you progress from the simple "4NT is always blackwood"

I agree with Frances.

Good partnerships spend a lot of time determining if 4N is natural, takeout, key card or (rarely) something else.

I would say that there isn't a obvious advantage of using 4N as Frances' suggests, but in my experience her interpretations are optimal.

I would also add these sequences into the soup for discussion:

1. 1M (4m) 4N (I prefer this as key card)
2. (weak 2) 4N (two places to play)

There are also many non-competitive auctions that should be discussed where 4N is potentially ambiguous.

[jdonn]

I changed this post, I decided it wasn't a good idea for B/I forum. Suffice to say that it's a good topic to discuss and an issue that confuses many players.