[gwnn]

1♦-p-1NT-p
p-2♥

does this bid exist? If it does, does it show something special?

[firmit]

I would say yes - is this not a pure balancing bid?
If dbl is for penalty, then 2♥ should show tolerance for both majors. If dbl is take-out, 2♥ tend to deny 4c spades - at least, that's what I would say. I may be way off!

[rogerclee]

Balancing.

[ArtK78]

Normal balancing call. Nothing unusual about it.

[pclayton]

firmit, on Oct 4 2008, 04:55 AM, said:

I would say yes - is this not a pure balancing bid?
If dbl is for penalty, then 2♥ should show tolerance for both majors. If dbl is take-out, 2♥ tend to deny 4c spades - at least, that's what I would say. I may be way off!

It makes sense to play DONT here (except x = penalty of course). I would be very surprised if the 2♥ bidder didn't have another place to play.

[gnasher]

If it exists, it shows four hearts and longer diamonds. There's no hand with five hearts where I'd bid now having passed on the round before.

[Codo]

He may have one of the following hands:
1. A take out double of Diamonds, too weak to double first round and afraid that a double of 1 NT would show a pen. double of diamonds.
2. Both majors, too weak too double 1 Diamond, something like Axxx,Kxxx,QJxx,x maybe?
3. A Penalty double of 1 Diamond with some hearts, beliving that double now shows a take out of diamond.

I play him for Number two.

[P_Marlowe]

Sure, the bid exists.

The suit quality will be non existent,
i.e. Jxxxx at best.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[han]

Does not exist.

[bid_em_up]

gnasher, on Oct 4 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

If it exists, it shows four hearts and longer diamonds. There's no hand with five hearts where I'd bid now having passed on the round before.

So you're going to overcall 1H on:

Kxx 98754 AQxx x

Surely its right to pass initially with this hand, then bid 2H in the balancing position.

[655321]

bid_em_up, on Oct 6 2008, 02:26 PM, said:

gnasher, on Oct 4 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

If it exists, it shows four hearts and longer diamonds.  There's no hand with five hearts where I'd bid now having passed on the round before.

So you're going to overcall 1H on:

Kxx 98754 AQxx x

Surely its right to pass initially with this hand, then bid 2H in the balancing position.

I can't speak for gnasher, but this looks like a 1♥ wtp to me.

[gwnn]

The guy from Vugraph did this on something like

KQxx JTxxx Kxx x

or something.

[Lobowolf]

655321, on Oct 6 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Oct 6 2008, 02:26 PM, said:

gnasher, on Oct 4 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

If it exists, it shows four hearts and longer diamonds.  There's no hand with five hearts where I'd bid now having passed on the round before.

So you're going to overcall 1H on:

Kxx 98754 AQxx x

Surely its right to pass initially with this hand, then bid 2H in the balancing position.

I can't speak for gnasher, but this looks like a 1♥ wtp to me.

I'm with Marlowe. I understand that many (most) good players will bid 1♥ initially, but surely "WTP?" is a bit much. Possible "P"'s include getting partner off to a horrendous lead, and giving declarer information about the defenders' distribution and strength. Having said that, upon finding out via the auction that partner has a chunk of the strength, thereby further increasing the upside (the likelihood that we can buy the contract), I'd be more than willing to balance on my 9-high suit (especially since the initial pass will warn partner that my suit quality isn't worth getting excited about, and he shouldn't be influenced with respect to his lead choice).

[jdonn]

Overcalling to begin with is not only far more productive than bidding 2♥ later, it's SO much safer. When you are in trouble after (1♦) 1♥ you very rarely get caught, and when you do at least you are a level lower. When you are in trouble after (1♦) P (1NT) P (P) 2♥, you are extremely easy to double, and you are a level higher as well.

Can we pleeeeeease not have this discussion every time about how some people find almost all overcalls really obvious. No one suggests there aren't downsides. They are saying it's a wtp TO ME since I have lots of experience weighing various factors and am confident that bidding (or not) works best for me in the long run.

[rbforster]

gnasher, on Oct 4 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

If it exists, it shows four hearts and longer diamonds. There's no hand with five hearts where I'd bid now having passed on the round before.

Wouldn't you be happier bidding 2♦ with 4♥/5+♦? At least partner can stop with diamond tolerance. (not that I'm endorsing this method particularly)

If you're playing a balancing double is penalty, I agree with suggestion that DONT seems pretty good here (aside from losing clubs). Other similar 2-suited method might make sense. What about this -

X penalty, 13-14 balanced or even stronger with good diamonds
2♣ 5+ natural, too weak/poor suit for 2♣ overcall earlier
2♦ 44 majors
2M 5+ natural, for those who have suit quality requirements for their direct overcalls

[dburn]

Not sure how safe it is to bid clubs with a poor suit here - the 1NT bidder may be well placed to deal with that. Would prefer 2♣ for majors and 2♦ as natural (good suit and little else).

[the hog]

bid_em_up, on Oct 7 2008, 02:26 AM, said:

gnasher, on Oct 4 2008, 11:26 AM, said:

If it exists, it shows four hearts and longer diamonds.  There's no hand with five hearts where I'd bid now having passed on the round before.

So you're going to overcall 1H on:

Kxx 98754 AQxx x

Surely its right to pass initially with this hand, then bid 2H in the balancing position.

This is a wtp 1 overcall for me as well.

[benlessard]

I know 3 style of overcalling.

Old school
An overcall show either a good suit or an opening hands.
You often need to balance and here 2H show 6H but the suit probably lack quality.
The philosophy of this style is if partner overcall and you have Kx lead the K and it will never cost a trick.


Very agressive style quick in quick out.
The requirement to overcall & preempt are quite low, once you pass youre rarely balancing or bidding a new suit after that. In fact a new suit by a passed hand tend to show tol for the unbids suit or for partner suit. Nobody that play that style will bid 2H on a hand that wasnt able to take action over 1D. The philosophy of this style is that its safer and more disruptive to get in early than later.


No flaw overcalls. Could be as light as the quick in quick out but isnt afraid to pass hands with flaws and bid later. Overcall that doesnt steal space tend to be sound. A compromise between lead directing and quick in.

KQxx JTxxx Kxx x

If you play the 3rd style, overcalling with this doesnt make sense. You prefer a S lead than a H lead. 1H steal no space and having both major should enable to compete over 2D anyway. 2H should show 5S + 4H and 2D should show 5H and 4S.


I believe that style 1 is close to being obsolete and i prefer style 2 for preempts but style 3 for overcalls.