[marcD]

Scoring: XIMP

2♠ 3♥ 4♠ ?

2S muiderberg weak S + minor (5/4+, 5-10 HCP)

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Reasonnably strong field

[gnasher]

I would double for takeout. Given my spade holding, that's almost equivalent to bidding 5♥ myself, but if partner has two spades he may leave it in. If he does, that will probably be best.

If double isn't for takeout, I bid 5♥ myself. I wouldn't describe this as "easy" and I wouldn't regard a double as "risky".

[Lobowolf]

In case partner is concealing a longer diamond suit, or a 9-card side club suit?

[gnasher]

Lobowolf, on Sep 24 2008, 05:00 PM, said:

In case partner is concealing a longer diamond suit, or a 9-card side club suit?

No, in case partner has a doubleton spade and a hand suitable for defending. Does your browser truncate every post after the first five words?

[han]

[Lobowolf]

gnasher, on Sep 24 2008, 11:31 AM, said:

Lobowolf, on Sep 24 2008, 05:00 PM, said:

In case partner is concealing a longer diamond suit, or a 9-card side club suit?

No, in case partner has a doubleton spade and a hand suitable for defending. Does your browser truncate every post after the first five words?

No offense intended...just struck me funny. "Takeout" has a connotation to me suggesting that the partner of the takeout doubler choose one of a variety of suits.

[skjaeran]

Lobowolf, on Sep 24 2008, 07:15 PM, said:

gnasher, on Sep 24 2008, 11:31 AM, said:

Lobowolf, on Sep 24 2008, 05:00 PM, said:

In case partner is concealing a longer diamond suit, or a 9-card side club suit?

No, in case partner has a doubleton spade and a hand suitable for defending. Does your browser truncate every post after the first five words?

No offense intended...just struck me funny. "Takeout" has a connotation to me suggesting that the partner of the takeout doubler choose one of a variety of suits.

Ahem. As the level increases, the chance partne will pass out a take out double also increases, especially after the bidding reaches 4M.

[Lobowolf]

skaeran, on Sep 24 2008, 03:06 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Sep 24 2008, 07:15 PM, said:

gnasher, on Sep 24 2008, 11:31 AM, said:

Lobowolf, on Sep 24 2008, 05:00 PM, said:

In case partner is concealing a longer diamond suit, or a 9-card side club suit?

No, in case partner has a doubleton spade and a hand suitable for defending. Does your browser truncate every post after the first five words?

No offense intended...just struck me funny. "Takeout" has a connotation to me suggesting that the partner of the takeout doubler choose one of a variety of suits.

Ahem. As the level increases, the chance partne will pass out a take out double also increases, especially after the bidding reaches 4M.

Well, of course it does, but that's not really the point. If the bidding goes

1♥ - (X), the chances of 1♥ being left in are small (but existent); however, the double generally suggests that partner can (should) bid one of three other suits. That's not the same as "let's compete in this one particular suit that you've identified, unless you want to defend."

[han]

So what is it about gnasher's first post that you don't understand, his explanation is cristal clear.

[Lobowolf]

han, on Sep 24 2008, 05:13 PM, said:

So what is it about gnasher's first post that you don't understand, his explanation is cristal clear.

Ummm...well, nothing. I apologize if my post suggested that there was something I wasn't understanding. My initial comments were intended ironically, despite the question mark. I didn't actually think that he might be catering to a side 9-card club suit. I just don't associate "bid your own suit again, or penalize them" with "takeout."

[han]

No partner won't be bidding his own suit again, partner won't expect support for this double. Partner will think it is a "takeout double", although he is also aware that at this level we will be doubling on many shapes. But if partner bids 5C or 5D then we'll bid 5H.

[NickRW]

To my mind double is the only real option, regardless of whether partner will read this as "t/o" or values. The reason I think this is that there are possible hands for partner where though 4♥ stood good chances, 5♥ is quite possibly poor. So I don't want to unilaterally decide that 5♥ is the spot to be in. Equally pass is unthinkable - it seems on balance they are probably off and maybe enough off to make life rosy even if we could make 5♥. So double is my only choice regardless of what it exactly means to partner.

[mikeh]

I don't understand double, if the idea is that partner will usually do the right thing opposite this hand.

Let me suggest a couple of possible hands for your consideration.

1stly: K109 Jx Axxx Qxxx, same auction.

This is obviously a far more promising hand for defence than the OP hand. If the OP hand is considered good enough that we must either defend doubled or bid at the 5-level, can we really consider a pass here, with so much more defence (we may not have more defence per se, but our heart shortage improves the odds that we have heart winners.. on the OP hand we have at most one heart winner, and often none)?

So we double, this time as penalty.. or as transferable values, allowing partner to pull with 64 or 55 and short spades.

Ok, flip to x AKxxxx KQx Kxx. Any complaints about a full-value 3♥ overcall?

Now, what do you want this hand to do opposite a double by K109 Jx Axxx Qxxx?

Really... you want to play 5 of a minor? Or 5♥? Nice high level judgement.

The truth is that partner will and should usually pass the double with 1=6=3=3, which is his most likely shape, and you will miss your 10 card fit. Calling the double takeout may be the best way to win the post-mortem when that happens

I am torn between double and 5♥, but I cannot allow that indecision to persuade me to set partner up for the blame if I double and he passes on the wrong hand. Opposite my suggested hand, we rate to beat 4♠ 2 tricks, but we rate to have an easy 5♥. I think I bid.

[gnasher]

mikeh, on Sep 25 2008, 07:06 PM, said:

1stly: K109 Jx Axxx Qxxx, same auction.

This is obviously a far more promising hand for defence than the OP hand.

Indeed, and if I were playing penalty doubles I would double with this hand. Playing takeout doubles, however, a double shows a promising hand for offence, and K109 Jx Axxx Qxxx is a pass.

Quote

If the OP hand is considered good enough that we must either defend doubled or bid at the 5-level, can we really consider a pass here, with so much more defence

Yes, we can. One disadvantage of playing a double as takeout is that you can't make a penalty double.

Quote

The truth is that partner will and should usually pass the double with 1=6=3=3, which is his most likely shape, and you will miss your 10 card fit.

That may be true playing penalty or transferrable-values doubles. Playing takeout doubles, I would expect partner to take it out with a small singleton spade.

Quote

Calling the double takeout may be the best way to win the post-mortem when that happens

Calling the double takeout is the also the best thing to do when the partnership's agreement is, in fact, that the double is takeout.

[marcD]

The real life score is 5♥ -12 (doubled !) , Pass -8, double -6 if partner does not pull (-12 otherwise)

Scoring: XIMP

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We do not use adjective bidding in France either so the meaning of double is supposed to be defined in the partnership, but i was interested to see what is the maintream approach to this kind of problem

Guess we lost the board when North decided his hand was a Vulnerable Muiderberg opening.
3♥ may not be to everyone's taste but 4♣ leaping micheal (forcing) seemed a bit too rich on that moderate collection

Playing transferable values I think this hand is closer to pass than dbl(agree with Mikeh, this is more like i will win the post mortem dbl) but I had some sympathy for 5♥ which seems a sensible choice at IMP (the risk I was referring to was the double game swing, unlikely but possible).

thanks for your answers/ debate

[dake50]

5H. Best guess here is 4-support suggests offense. Besides sometimes they go 5S giving me another shot.

[TimG]

How does a direct 5♥ differ from 4NT followed by pulling 5m to 5♥?

[FrancesHinden]

TimG, on Oct 3 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

How does a direct 5♥ differ from 4NT followed by pulling 5m to 5♥?

I play 4NT-then-5H as showing a good 5H bid.

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 3 2008, 11:29 AM, said:

TimG, on Oct 3 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

How does a direct 5♥ differ from 4NT followed by pulling 5m to 5♥?

I play 4NT-then-5H as showing a good 5H bid.

I hate this sort of (admitedly common among experts) 2-way thing. They bid 5♠ and partner has a total misconception of your hand type.