[firmit]

Bidding goes:

(pass)-pass-(1♦)-dbl
(1♥)-2♥!-(dbl*)-pass
(pass)-3♦!!-(pass)-3NT
(pass)-5♣!!!-(pass)-

2♥ is forcing - no agreement. Openers dbl is 3c heart support.
3♦ is not alerted.

You hold
♠ K98
♥ AJ98
♦ A2
♣ Q876

Your bid please.

[Gerben42]

At Matchpoints this is a clear 6♣. At IMPs I would probably pass and take the plus.

[ArtK78]

Pass.

Partner may very well have both minors on this auction, but he is a passed hand. I am not bidding a club slam opposite a passed hand. You could easily be off two tricks.

Even if you are not off two quick tricks, slam is unlikely to be cold.

[dicklont]

Pass.
After an initial pass and 2 forcing bids partners jumps to 5♣.
I would have interpreted 4♣ as a slam try.
He must have a wild hand, too strong to preempt and too weak to open.
Is it Axxx x xx KJxxxx?

[Hanoi5]

6♣. Two cue-bids and then he takes me out of 3NT? 6♣, and he'd better fulfills it.

[han]

The whole world and most aliens play that 2H is natural and non-forcing. But you play it is forcing and no agreement, and you have a passed hand bidding 2H, then 3D and then 5C without agreement and ask us what to bid.

And then some people are actually answering the question!!!

[skjaeran]

This bidding sequence combined with my hand doesn't exist at all.
Standard is that 2♥ is natural and limited, with a 5-card suit. And 2♦ is a strenth showing cuebid. Obviously, this is unknown to NS here.

Anyway, having a 7 loser hand facing a passed partner, I see no reason to consider bidding on.

[mikeh]

If this hand came up in online bridge, and partner wasn't a friend, I'd pass, and then say that I had to go... and I'd leave.

Partner is either profoundly ignorant of bridge or he is an idiot.. 2♥ is natural non-forcing, who knows what 3♦ was supposed to be, and 4♣ over 3N would be forcing. I don't care what his hand is.... he hasn't shown it.

[jdonn]

It's certainly easy to win the post mortem by passing, since I can blame partner for not knowing what any bids mean. I mean who knows, maybe he passed with 2056 and is now going nuts? What are the hands people think partner has where slam makes anyway, example hand anyone? Please remember, neither opponent has bid spades...

[cherdano]

jdonn, on Sep 26 2008, 09:25 AM, said:

It's certainly easy to win the post mortem by passing, since I can blame partner for not knowing what any bids mean. I mean who knows, maybe he passed with 2056 and is now going nuts? What are the hands people think partner has where slam makes anyway, example hand anyone? Please remember, neither opponent has bid spades...

Of course all bets are off about what partner has, but an example hand where slam makes would be AQxx x x KT9xxxx.

[ArtK78]

3 respected posters state that 2♥ is natural and nonforcing.

Huh?

Last I checked, RHO bid 1♥ natural over partner's takeout double. The passed hand can bid spades naturally and clubs naturally. Double should be for penalties. Why in the world is 2♥ natural and nonforcing?

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:36 AM, said:

3 respected posters state that 2♥ is natural and nonforcing.

Huh?

Last I checked, RHO bid 1♥ natural over partner's takeout double. The passed hand can bid spades naturally and clubs naturally. Double should be for penalties. Why in the world is 2♥ natural and nonforcing?

Sigh... I think the first sentence of your thread should have been your clue to not post the rest of it, lest you become subjected to extreme embarassment and shame

Seriously, standard is indeed 2♥ is natural and nf. Doubling 1♥ implies four, bidding 2♥ implies five.

[ArtK78]

jdonn, on Sep 26 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:36 AM, said:

3 respected posters state that 2♥ is natural and nonforcing.

Huh?

Last I checked, RHO bid 1♥ natural over partner's takeout double.  The passed hand can bid spades naturally and clubs naturally.  Double should be for penalties.  Why in the world is 2♥ natural and nonforcing?

Sigh... I think the first sentence of your thread should have been your clue to not post the rest of it, lest you become subjected to extreme embarassment and shame

Seriously, standard is indeed 2♥ is natural and nf. Doubling 1♥ implies four, bidding 2♥ implies five.

I suspect that this view would be a minority view in any BW Master Solvers Club problem.

They have been discussing "2-cue bid" sitatations like this for years.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 26 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:36 AM, said:

3 respected posters state that 2♥ is natural and nonforcing.

Huh?

Last I checked, RHO bid 1♥ natural over partner's takeout double.  The passed hand can bid spades naturally and clubs naturally.  Double should be for penalties.  Why in the world is 2♥ natural and nonforcing?

Sigh... I think the first sentence of your thread should have been your clue to not post the rest of it, lest you become subjected to extreme embarassment and shame

Seriously, standard is indeed 2♥ is natural and nf. Doubling 1♥ implies four, bidding 2♥ implies five.

I suspect that this view would be a minority view in any BW Master Solvers Club problem.

Your suspicion would be wrong. That is a fact. There isn't much else to say about it, somehow this particular bid or situation has escaped your world of bridge knowledge.

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 26 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:36 AM, said:

3 respected posters state that 2♥ is natural and nonforcing.

Huh?

Last I checked, RHO bid 1♥ natural over partner's takeout double.  The passed hand can bid spades naturally and clubs naturally.  Double should be for penalties.  Why in the world is 2♥ natural and nonforcing?

Sigh... I think the first sentence of your thread should have been your clue to not post the rest of it, lest you become subjected to extreme embarassment and shame

Seriously, standard is indeed 2♥ is natural and nf. Doubling 1♥ implies four, bidding 2♥ implies five.

I suspect that this view would be a minority view in any BW Master Solvers Club problem.

They have been discussing "2-cue bid" sitatations like this for years.

I am absolutely certain that you are wrong, and, moreover, that you have confused this situation with the 'two cue bid' sequence of (1x) P (1y) 2x or 2y, where indeed the meaning of 2x and 2y has been discussed many times over the years. You might bear in mind that the standard treatment of 2y is and has been for many years 'natural'. I find it highly unlikely that any real expert would decide it was takeout after a double, bearing in mind that:

1. the double promised a fit for y or a hand strong enough to overcome any bid of y by advancer, and

2. use of 2y as takeout makes it easy for responder (note: responder, not advancer) to psyche 1y when he knows that his LHO is limited, if he wants to show y, to double... it loads the double too heavily, and prevents advancer from showing real length (5+).

I have played bridge for more than 30 years, and have read the BW going back to the 40's (although in terms of being relevant to today's bidding methods, the BW only becomes readable in the mid 70's when Kaplan and Reubens took over). I have probably read every MSC article over the past 30 years at least 4 or 5 times... I tend to reread them every few years.

[skjaeran]

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 06:51 PM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 26 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:36 AM, said:

3 respected posters state that 2♥ is natural and nonforcing.

Huh?

Last I checked, RHO bid 1♥ natural over partner's takeout double.  The passed hand can bid spades naturally and clubs naturally.  Double should be for penalties.  Why in the world is 2♥ natural and nonforcing?

Sigh... I think the first sentence of your thread should have been your clue to not post the rest of it, lest you become subjected to extreme embarassment and shame

Seriously, standard is indeed 2♥ is natural and nf. Doubling 1♥ implies four, bidding 2♥ implies five.

I suspect that this view would be a minority view in any BW Master Solvers Club problem.

They have been discussing "2-cue bid" sitatations like this for years.

You're dead wrong.

2♥ as natural and non-forcing would be unanimous among the experts in the Master Solvers Club.

[han]

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 26 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:36 AM, said:

3 respected posters state that 2♥ is natural and nonforcing.

Huh?

Last I checked, RHO bid 1♥ natural over partner's takeout double.  The passed hand can bid spades naturally and clubs naturally.  Double should be for penalties.  Why in the world is 2♥ natural and nonforcing?

Sigh... I think the first sentence of your thread should have been your clue to not post the rest of it, lest you become subjected to extreme embarassment and shame

Seriously, standard is indeed 2♥ is natural and nf. Doubling 1♥ implies four, bidding 2♥ implies five.

I suspect that this view would be a minority view in any BW Master Solvers Club problem.

They have been discussing "2-cue bid" sitatations like this for years.

You are wrong, 2H is natural as it should be.

[peachy]

I don't play your methods.
In my book, 2H is showing 5-card hearts (hand that has four card hearts would Dbl 1H). Apparently 2h here was intended as forcing "not-hearts"because there is no other way to explain 3D and 5C. The wheels have come off, on both ends. Sorry.

[the hog]

ArtK78, on Sep 26 2008, 11:36 PM, said:

3 respected posters state that 2♥ is natural and nonforcing.

Huh?

Last I checked, RHO bid 1♥ natural over partner's takeout double. The passed hand can bid spades naturally and clubs naturally. Double should be for penalties. Why in the world is 2♥ natural and nonforcing?

I think its natural and nf as well. You will often find that making a penalty x is a pointless exercise as they will simply bounce in opener's suit net round.

[firmit]

There happened to be many points in this auction. I was seating West - and felt like "lying". South had just psyched us out of a cold spade game. However, we got him back! At all red - this came up.


(tried the Noozit article generator at picasa - so the url changes... )

Alerts is as in the OP - 2♥ is alerted by bidder as "forcing" - how his partner understood this is not taken into account.

In the OP - I removed the dbl of 5♣. But I suspect this does not change much - or does it? Is redbl now SOS - or do you feel content being in 5♣XX - given the fact that you consider bidding 6♣....