[han]

Pass is awful. Even if the auction goes exactly as you hoped for (1D - 1H - 2H) you cannot come close to describing your hand.

I do not understand Codo, how does shape compensate for being too strong?

[fred]

han, on Sep 27 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

Pass is awful. Even if the auction goes exactly as you hoped for (1D - 1H - 2H) you cannot come close to describing your hand.

I do not understand Codo, how does shape compensate for being too strong?

Disagree - I don't think Pass is awful at all.

I think 1S and 2C are both awful, DBL and Pass are both reasonable but not my style, and that 1NT is reasonable and is my style.

I have no doubt that I would bid 1NT at the table, but I would not be surprised in the least to learn (perhaps from a simulation perhaps or from a poll of very experienced great players) that either Pass or DBL was the long term winner. I would be surprised to learn this about either 1S or 2C.

I think I would Pass if the vulnerability was reversed even though it is not my style to Pass with such strong hands.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[dburn]

Would bid 1NT. Don't mind pass, and don't much mind double. 1♠ is vile. 2♣ is urvile.

[helene_t]

1NT and I lack imagination to give a 2nd choice. I would be disappointed if p did anything else.

[jdonn]

I still don't see passing. It's easily good enough to bid 1NT (or double then bid notrump), so the only reason not to would be the singleton heart. Considering this is such a maximum, and that the singleton is the ace, I think someone would be hard pressed to say that that one deficiency is enough reason to pass.

It's true you might get to double hearts for takeout next round, but you can never easily again show a hand this good.

[fred]

jdonn, on Sep 27 2008, 07:18 PM, said:

I still don't see passing. It's easily good enough to bid 1NT (or double then bid notrump), so the only reason not to would be the singleton heart. Considering this is such a maximum, and that the singleton is the ace, I think someone would be hard pressed to say that that one deficiency is enough reason to pass.

It's true you might get to double hearts for takeout next round, but you can never easily again show a hand this good.

In my experience bidding 1NT with these hands (which I do), partner will often transfer to your singleton and Pass (no surprise). Sometimes this works out OK, but sometimes it is a disaster. Another bad thing that is far from unlikely to happen if you overcall 1NT is that everyone will Pass, partner will have a smattering of values with 4 spades and you will miss a good 4S.

Anyways, I agree with you that the singleton heart is not a sufficient deficiency to reject 1NT - I would bid 1NT myself despite this an the other deficiency that is present in this hand (it is arguably too strong for a 1NT overcall, especially in terms of playability in spades or clubs opposite a hand with 4-card support).

Quote

It's true you might get to double hearts for takeout next round, but you can never easily again show a hand this good

Never is a long time

If you Pass and the auction continues 1H-P-1NT then you are in pretty good shape. You can DBL and then take another call, your partner should get the picture (granted you might be too high by the time this happens).

If you Pass and the auction continues 1H-P-2D or 1H-P-2H it is a little less comfortable, but you will still land on your feet a lot of the time by Doubling and then bidding again.

Sometimes in both of the above scenarios you will collect a penalty when you have no game. This is not likely to happen if you overcall 1NT. Sometimes if you Pass you will end up defending 2H doubled instead of playing in 2H yourself had you overcalled 1NT instead - that would be nice.

If you Pass and the auction continues 1H-P-1S or 1S-P-whatever, you might reasonably choose to stay out of the auction entirely. For sure you could miss a game by doing this, but you might also find that you are the only player with your cards who ends up with a plus score.

For sure Pass could work badly in all of these scenarios, but it is trivial to think of several families of hands in which it works better than 1NT. None of the alternatives come with any guarantees either (which is why this is a good problem).

Main reason I posted in this thread is that, even though I am a 1NT overcaller, I think that Pass is a lot more reasonable than most people seem to think. This might be partly a function of when and where I learned to play bridge and who the most influential players at that time and place were.

Pass was not always the dirty word that it seems to be now.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[gnasher]

It seems to me that modern bidding styles ought to make passing on this hand more attractive than it used to be. Players need less to respond than they used to, so making it more likely that you'll get another go if you do pass.

[jdonn]

fred, on Sep 27 2008, 02:57 PM, said:

Main reason I posted in this thread is that, even though I am a 1NT overcaller, I think that Pass is a lot more reasonable than most people seem to think. This might be partly a function of when and where I learned to play bridge and who the most influential players at that time and place were.

Pass was not always the dirty word that it seems to be now.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Why didn't you just say so. You don't mind pass because you're old

I do agree with your post pretty much, except I didn't say "never", I said "never easily", which I think is what you pretty much agree with.

[gnasher]

fred, on Sep 27 2008, 08:57 PM, said:

If you Pass and the auction continues 1H-P-1S or 1S-P-whatever, you might reasonably choose to stay out of the auction entirely.

Or you might bid 2♣.

This is MSC Problem C in the April 2008 Bridge World:

J963 K108654 65 7

  1♦   pass 1♥   pass
  1♠   2♣   dbl

Woolsey argues cogently that the overcaller's sequence suggests something like a 4=1=3=5 with "a mediocre five-card suit", which had hoped to be able to double 2♥ for takeout, and is "too strong to continue passing".

[benlessard]

I consider pass awful. I tend to pass a bit more then the average expert but here i think pass is the worse of the 5 bids. Its just too ugly. What wrong with double and 1S over 1H ?

to play 1S in 4-1 misfit is highly unlikely.
1S in 4-2 spades will score a "+" more oftne than 2H (5-1) or 2NT.

If partner has some values I much prefer having started with a X than having started with 1Nt.

I think you have to work pretty hard to find a scenario where 1Nt is better than double followed by 1S/2Nt/3Nt.



The only minor point is that

1D-----X-----2D-------2H

VS

1D----1Nt-----2D--------2H

If partner can bid 2H without values in both case then here 1NT might work better then X.

Quote

It seems to me that modern bidding styles ought to make passing on this hand more attractive than it used to be. Players need less to respond than they used to, so making it more likely that you'll get another go if you do pass.

I think the opposite.

If they bid

1D-----1H
1S-----1NT

1D-----1H
2D

1D-----1H
1Nt----2H

etc...

Even if you managed to double 1Nt or double something its still tougher to bid game on your side compared to a direct move.