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Should 3NT+1 and 4M = have same score? My Duplicate Bugbear :-)

#1 User is offline   badderzboy 

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Posted 2004-April-09, 06:56

I love the game of bridge but the most annoying thing I see in MPs Duplicate is the correct bidding to 4 of a major just making and the score sheet littered with 3NT+1.

Do you think bidding 3NT on a hand which would normally be bid to 4 of a major at teams/imps/rubber is good bridge or alternatively WHEN do u do it?

Should the scoring be adjusted to make these one & same?

The corrolary is why is it my opps bid these hands to 4 of a major and the 3NT'ers only make 9 lol.

Interested in other opinions.

Steve
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#2 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-April-09, 07:01

I disagree.

Notrumps classically score more because on balance they are more difficult contracts to make as many tricks as in your best trump fit, and to succeed in that endeavour is worthy of reward.

Your strategy should adjust to fit the scoring in force at the time. If 3NT and 4 Major both make 10 tricks then your underlying premise that it is the "correct bidding to 4 of a major" is flawed.

Judging when to play in 3NT v 4 Major in a MP event is a definite skill. Anyone who successfully demonstrates that skill should receive the benefit.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

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Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#3 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-April-09, 07:20

That's on of the real challenges of MP's, so I wouldn't change the score at all!

MP tourneys have great stuff which makes the game 'totally' different from imps. I really like imps, but MP's are more about taking a challenge: do you play 3NT or 4M with an 8 card fit M, is a part score better than risky game, is a moysian 2M better than 2m or 3m or 2NT,...

Also, the play is a bit different. Sometimes in imps you'll give away unnecessary tricks to opps to give your contract the best chance, while in MP's every trick counts! If you're playing 3NT with an 8 card M fit, you'll play for +1 or +2, according to how many tricks the field will make in 4M. Sometimes you'll even play 2M with a 4-3 fit while a 8 or 9 card fit minor is available, and it will score better! That's what makes MP games so interesting.

Now is the question: WHEN do we try to play 3NT with an 8 card fit M? As far as I know, from around (27)28HCP, it's usually better to play 3NT (you'll have an extra trick) while with up to 26(27) HCP it's better to play 4M (because 3NT will just make). Also, if you have a dangerspot where you think 4M will go down, it's also better to try 3NT and hope it makes. If you are 'certain' that you'll lose 4 tricks by toptricks and/or ruffing values of opps, it might be better to play 3NT and just make.

Remark for those who don't know this: the extra trick to make 10 tricks in trump and only 9 tricks in NT with the same cards usually comes from the fact that most of the time, you'll be able to ruff a losing card, and make 5 tricks of say with a 4-4 fit, while in NT that's impossible. Also, the trump gives extra possible plays to make the contract (like ruff & sluff).
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Posted 2004-April-09, 08:02

No
--Ben--

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Posted 2004-April-09, 08:13

LOL @ Ben! Not used to get so few words from you ;)
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Posted 2004-April-09, 08:19

Free, on Apr 9 2004, 09:13 AM, said:

LOL @ Ben! Not used to get so few words from you ;)

Simple question, simple answer. No need for a lot of words...

(but really I am just padding my post total with that response and this one... If I do a lot of that, I can become the number one poster after a while I think). :D
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#7 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-April-09, 08:27

No. Best improvement to bridge rules will be 0 NT bid. This bid will make little revolution in ways of bidding. Normally contract 0NT must be 6 tricks, because right of first lead for opps and will give you 10 points under line. Every next level of NT will give you 30 points under line like majors.

Spoiler
Misho
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#8 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-April-09, 08:39

Misho, a 0NT bid would be awful! People would start playing strong 0NT, that's the only reason why you want the bid, admit it ;) It would be great for science systems so you wouldn't need to play neboulous NT and precision 2 and stuff like that, but others don't need it at all...
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#9 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-April-09, 08:47

This reminded me of something happend to me when i was a newbie, i got to 3h and took 13 tricks, while at the other tables they took only 12 tricks in 4h and 6h, i thought the scoring it wrong.
Sure its not the same but its the same principle, and ovious to me that there is no need to change it.
If i would change something is about the minor scoring, to make it more of an option.
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Posted 2004-April-09, 08:58

What I think isn't fair is that 2M*+1 scores better than 3M*=!! You have to make one extra trick, and you're not rewarded for it ;) Same for 3m*+1 and 4m*= :D All other scoring is just right imo
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#11 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2004-April-09, 09:16

Free, on Apr 9 2004, 09:58 AM, said:

What I think isn't fair is that 2M*+1 scores better than 3M*=!!  You have to make one extra trick, and you're not rewarded for it  ;)  Same for 3m*+1 and 4m*=  :D  All other scoring is just right imo

It is absolutely right that the opponent (who doubles you in a contract that is so rock solid as to be making overtricks) should be penalised more as a result of such dreadful judgement.
Throughout the game there are examples of players doing stupid things at OTHER tables, and their opponents are the ones who benefit, exceeding your normal result. You just have to hope that in the long run the stupidities get dished around the room evenly.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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#12 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2004-April-10, 06:24

badderzboy, on Apr 10 2004, 01:56 AM, said:

I love the game of bridge but the most annoying thing I see in MPs Duplicate is the correct bidding to 4 of a major just making and the score sheet littered with 3NT+1.

Do you think bidding 3NT on a hand which would normally be bid to 4 of a major at teams/imps/rubber is good bridge or alternatively WHEN do u do it?

Should the scoring be adjusted to make these one & same?

The corrolary is why is it my opps bid these hands to 4 of a major and the 3NT'ers only make 9 lol.

Interested in other opinions.

Steve

GUESS that's because at MP's 3NT +1 IS a better score than 4 M ----- MAYBE not at IMPS -- so I realise that it's IMPORTANT to know what type of tourney you are playing in :P
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Posted 2004-April-10, 07:03

Free, on Apr 9 2004, 09:58 AM, said:

What I think isn't fair is that 2M*+1 scores better than 3M*=!! You have to make one extra trick, and you're not rewarded for it :P Same for 3m*+1 and 4m*= :P All other scoring is just right imo

I dont see a problem there.
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#14 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-April-10, 22:56

That's the whole risk of MP's. You taking bigger chance to play NT, just for the extra 10 points, and hopefully a good MP score.

Mike ;)
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be ideas, and hard thought, and hard work.
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