[pclayton]

Say your tendency is to open 1N with many types of offshape hands; 5-4's 6322's, etc.. Your tendency is also to respond to a one bid with a reason.

Does this affect a sequence like:

1 minor - 1N - 2N - ? which traditionally showed an offshape 15-17?

[TimG]

Doesn't 2N simply invite responder to bid 3N if he is near the top of his range?

[Echognome]

I never learned the "traditional" way and always have played it as 18-19 (or in some cases 17-19) bal.

[helene_t]

In the Netherlands, different textbooks handle this differently. I suppose one author thought it is more symmetric if it shows 18-19 as that it what it shows after a suit response.

If the opening suit is diamonds, you could easily have an invitational (34)51. Maybe it's more difficult to construct an invitational hand if the opening suit is 1♣, but you could still have a 5431-type with a stiff ace.

[ASkolnick]

To Phil's question:

1) If you are off shape with a minor and a major, you could just bid the major and reverse even though partner tends to deny a major, so he either rates to have support or the other minor, so you don't rate to go past three of the minor.

2) The issue comes up when you have both diamonds and clubs and you don't want to jump shift. The compromise I have come up with is that 2C is forcing for one round. Sure, you don't get to play in exactly two clubs, but you can play in 2D.

[awm]

I have always played this as 18/19 and thought that was standard. I don't even really understand the "off shape" treatment or how it is supposed to work.

In particular, 1m-1NT often (but not always) conceals 3-4 card support for opener's minor. It does not promise particular stoppers in the majors either. Over 1m-1N-2N showing an unbalanced hand with extras, how are you supposed to reach the best partial? How do you reach the best game? It seems much better for opener to show his shape by bidding naturally (including possibly reversing) so that we can select the right contract.

[Gerben42]

I have always played this as about good 16 to 17 and thought that was standard... Only a jump to 2NT shows 18-19. now it's invitational.

[jdonn]

Isn't it different over 1♣ and 1♦? 1NT over 1♦ tends to have a wider range, and more varieties of shapes, so 18-19 seems normal. Over 1♣ it's a tighter (higher like 8-10?) range and more balanced so you can bid 3NT with 18-19 balanced. I think 2NT tends to be lighter with long clubs that you hope will run.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Sep 23 2008, 03:09 PM, said:

Isn't it different over 1♣ and 1♦? 1NT over 1♦ tends to have a wider range, and more varieties of shapes, so 18-19 seems normal. Over 1♣ it's a tighter (higher like 8-10?) range and more balanced so you can bid 3NT with 18-19 balanced. I think 2NT tends to be lighter with long clubs that you hope will run.

ding ding ding!!!

[awm]

jdonn, on Sep 23 2008, 03:09 PM, said:

Isn't it different over 1♣ and 1♦? 1NT over 1♦ tends to have a wider range, and more varieties of shapes, so 18-19 seems normal. Over 1♣ it's a tighter (higher like 8-10?) range and more balanced so you can bid 3NT with 18-19 balanced. I think 2NT tends to be lighter with long clubs that you hope will run.

Well I know some people like to play that 1♣-1NT is 8-10, but I wouldn't say this is exactly standard. It requires you to respond 1♦ on a three-card suit on some hands in fact (most notably 3334 hands, maybe some (332)5 hands if you play inverted minors).

And I'm still not sure I understand playing the 2NT raise as unbalanced. I mean, after 1♣-1NT, assuming partner would normally bid a five-card diamond suit (yes, I know some people don't bid their five-card diamond suits) you're pretty much guaranteed to find partner with 3-4♣. So if you don't have game you want to play in clubs. And if you do have game, with unbalanced hand opposite "no major" you probably want to consider that your game might be 5♣. If 2NT shows "long clubs you hope will run" then what does 1♣-1NT-3♣ show? Long clubs that are less likely to run?

[jdonn]

You hope will run = solid or almost solid.

For example, AJx xx xx AKQTxx. What are you going to do. Not take a chance on game? Force to game? Sure you could bid 3♣ but it's nice that partner can know club shortness isn't awful, and that you are a bit light in high cards.

Playing 2NT is not balanced only fits with 1NT 8-10. If 1NT is min-9+ or whatever, then sure 2NT over that is 18-19, but that really is pointless if 1NT is 8-10. I don't have a clue which is standard, but I'd say enough people play it that you can't really know.