[kenberg]

I'll present the question in some generality, then I'll give a hand.


1C Pass 1H 1S
X 2S 3D Pass
?

The double was support showing exactly three hearts. As far as I know, the opening hand could have 12 points or it could have 18 points.

3D was understood as a game try, showing diamonds. Whether it should promise five hearts is not entirely clear to me.

A hand:

Scoring: IMP

---

To keep the focus on the general question, I will tell you that, liking my heart K and diamond Q, I bid 4H, partner was hoping for slam and cue bid 4S, I signed of in 5H, the opps took their two aces, and we took 11 tricks. So no problem.

But! Suppose partner doesn't want to be in game opposite this hand but does want to be in game opposite the sixteen count that I might have (shapely 16 since I didn't open 1NT). How does he make that clear?

[jdonn]

kenberg, on Sep 22 2008, 12:07 PM, said:

But! Suppose partner doesn't want to be in game opposite this hand but does want to be in game opposite the sixteen count that I might have (shapely 16 since I didn't open 1NT). How does he make that clear?

Partner's invitational bids are made opposite the presumption of a minimum range opener (about 13-15). If he wants to be in game opposite stronger than that only, he passes and it's up to the support doubler to find another call (often another double).

[han]

I am not able to construct a hand that would bid as partner did and has only 4 hearts.

Surely you wouldn't bid 4H with a shapely 16!

[kenberg]

jdonn, on Sep 22 2008, 12:11 PM, said:

kenberg, on Sep 22 2008, 12:07 PM, said:

But! Suppose partner doesn't want to be in game opposite this hand but does want to be in game opposite the sixteen count that I might have (shapely 16 since I didn't open 1NT). How does he make that clear?

Partner's invitational bids are made opposite the presumption of a minimum range opener (about 13-15). If he wants to be in game opposite stronger than that only, he passes and it's up to the support doubler to find another call (often another double).

Sounds right so far, but let me push a little more then.


1C Pass 1H 1S
X 2S Pass Pass
?

Now I might have a shapely 16, I might have a semi-shapely 14 count. Given the right vul and scoring, I might well wish to compete over 2S and I suppose I do it with a double.

With, say, 1=3=3=6 I could have any strength. It seems to me that I might call 3C on a fair range here. I don't much care for a double.

Support doubles are played almost universally (I was a holdout but I have succumbed). I have seen very little advice along the lines of "What happens next?". In many, probably most, auctions opener's second call limits his hand to a fairly narrow range. Here I can imagine even the third call not defining the strength very well.Maybe no one actually has trouble with this, it worked out fine in the example hand.

Thanks for the response. It's useful even though I still want to think a bit more about this.

[jdonn]

The answer is, play g/b 2NT if you want

I agree, followups to support doubles are generally quite underdiscussed relative to their frequency and importance.

[cherdano]

jdonn, on Sep 22 2008, 12:30 PM, said:

The answer is, play g/b 2NT if you want

Hmm, that seems actually a great auction for g/b (by both responder and opener).

[han]

kenberg, on Sep 22 2008, 01:16 PM, said:

Support doubles are played almost universally. I have seen very little advice along the lines of "What happens next?".

I agree that follow-ups after support doubles can be dangerous because they are rarely discussed, and especially if there is little room left to distinguish strength as in your example auction. In this auction you will bid 3C on a minimal 1336, perhaps it is a good auction for playing G/B 2NT. I would recommend the following rules for follow ups after support doubles:

- Support double auctions are not "found-fit" auctions. New suits by responder are forcing and natural, not gametries. Cuebids are gameforcing.

- Further doubles by either player are takeout/competitive.

- Opener bids naturally, jumps show extra strength.

Arend and I had a heated discussion about 6 or 7 months ago after our auction started with:

1H - (p) - 1S - (2C)
Dbl - (p) - 2S - (3C)
3D - (p) - 4D

We landed in a decent spot but we thought very very differently about this auction. Usually support double auctions are more straightforward. Yesterday I had 9x AQx AKxxxx Kx and I could bid

1D - (p) - 1H - (Dbl)
Rdbl - (p) - p - (2C)
3D,

giving a nice description of my hand that might have been tougher without the support double.

[han]

I see that Josh also brought up G/B 2NT for this auction. If you play it here then of course you'd be stuck on some other hands.

[mike777]

Since I play support x I will give it a shot.
1) first off with many semibalanced 14-16 hcp I am opening 1nt.....
2) with other hands I am still starting with a support x.
3) Of course with any maximum I am going over an invite or I cue back with alot of extra.
4) With any minimum I am signing off in 3.
5) if partner signs off in 2h...I may come back with 2nt with a max that for some reason did not open 1nt.

[mike777]

kenberg, on Sep 22 2008, 01:16 PM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 22 2008, 12:11 PM, said:

kenberg, on Sep 22 2008, 12:07 PM, said:

But! Suppose partner doesn't want to be in game opposite this hand but does want to be in game opposite the sixteen count that I might have (shapely 16 since I didn't open 1NT). How does he make that clear?

Partner's invitational bids are made opposite the presumption of a minimum range opener (about 13-15). If he wants to be in game opposite stronger than that only, he passes and it's up to the support doubler to find another call (often another double).

Sounds right so far, but let me push a little more then.


1C Pass 1H 1S
X 2S Pass Pass
?

Now I might have a shapely 16, I might have a semi-shapely 14 count. Given the right vul and scoring, I might well wish to compete over 2S and I suppose I do it with a double.

With, say, 1=3=3=6 I could have any strength. It seems to me that I might call 3C on a fair range here. I don't much care for a double.

Support doubles are played almost universally (I was a holdout but I have succumbed). I have seen very little advice along the lines of "What happens next?". In many, probably most, auctions opener's second call limits his hand to a fairly narrow range. Here I can imagine even the third call not defining the strength very well.Maybe no one actually has trouble with this, it worked out fine in the example hand.

Thanks for the response. It's useful even though I still want to think a bit more about this.

yes I would probably balance with x or 3c......here.

As others may have said you can start with 2nt g/b with some shapely but weaker hand.

[cherdano]

han, on Sep 22 2008, 12:37 PM, said:

I see that Josh also brought up G/B 2NT for this auction. If you play it here then of course you'd be stuck on some other hands.

Not stuck, just overloading the double a bit But playing double as extra values, rather than takeout-ish, seems quite ok in an auction where one of us already knows the degree of one of our fits.