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multi is easy to defend...

#1 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2008-September-22, 01:38

2♦-X-2♥-2♠

2♦ showed an undisciplined major suit preempt
X showed a weak NT or a good good hand
2♥ was p/c

What should 2♠ be? What percentage of weak NT's are licensed to bid over it?

If 2♠ is purely competitive, how do you bid an invite with spades or a GF with spades?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#2 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-September-22, 01:46

2♠ is just competitive opposite the weak notrump, so only an unusually suitable weak notrump should move.

It's sensible to play the same methods here as after 1NT (2H), so either Lebensohl or Rubensohl would apply.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#3 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2008-September-22, 02:44

gnasher, on Sep 22 2008, 09:46 AM, said:

2♠ is just competitive opposite the weak notrump, so only an unusually suitable weak notrump should move.

It's sensible to play the same methods here as after 1NT (2H), so either Lebensohl or Rubensohl would apply.

Generally agree.

At MP's you need a very good hand to move, normally including four-card support.

At IMP's, 2♠ should show a little, but still be non-forcing. A weak nt with 3-card support should pass more often than not.

Agree with the Leben/Ruben considerations.
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Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


Gnasher
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-September-22, 03:02

Well Lebensohl must be modified since we need to be able to play in hearts.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#5 User is offline   Ant590 

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Posted 2008-September-22, 03:09

And I presume most play dbl as t/o? (after 2♥)
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#6 User is offline   ewj 

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Posted 2008-September-22, 03:46

Yeh, Leb over 2H. double take out.

So I play 3x as forcing here too.


If you have lots of hearts, you can just pass and wait for them to bid 2S or for p to make a take out double I suppose.
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#7 User is offline   lowerline 

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Posted 2008-September-23, 03:47

In this situation: (2♦)-dbl-(2♥)-?

You can play double as takeout for hearts (8+); 2NT as forcing to game; any suit bid as natural but not forcing (but showing some values, because very weak hands can pass).
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#8 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2008-September-23, 04:34

ewj, on Sep 22 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

If you have lots of hearts, you can just pass and wait for them to bid 2S or for p to make a take out double I suppose.

Unless they pass 2♥ with spades. Least unlikely, when they are favourable.
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


Gnasher
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#9 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2008-September-23, 05:56

gwnn, on Sep 22 2008, 03:38 AM, said:

... If 2♠ is purely competitive, how do you bid an invite with spades or a GF with spades?

Yes, just competitive - with invite+ double, Stayman, or transfer as below:

From ACBL Defense #2:

(2♦) DBL (2M) ?
(where 2M is P/C)
DBL = BAL, at least INV values; if FG stopper only in bid major. Does not deny a 4-card major
2♠ = natural
2NT forces 3♣; signoff or FG w/ minor
3♣ = Stayman, FG, continuations as after 2NT-3♣
3♦ or 3♥ = Transfers, at least INV
3♠ = Both minors, FG
3NT = 11-15 HCP, stopper in both majors
4 of a minor = Strong invitation
4M = natural
4NT = Blackwood
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2008-September-23, 06:04

X showed a weak NT? Change the methods.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#11 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2008-September-23, 06:22

The_Hog, on Sep 23 2008, 12:04 PM, said:

X showed a weak NT? Change the methods.

Comfortably the most popular defence in the UK (perhaps 12-16 for some).

Paul
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I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
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#12 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-September-23, 08:09

It may not be the best defense but surely when you have a weak notrump it is nice to be playing this.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#13 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2008-September-23, 08:27

gwnn, on Sep 22 2008, 07:38 AM, said:

What should 2♠ be? What percentage of weak NT's are licensed to bid over it?

2S says "If you have a weak notrump we are playing in 2S". IMO the % of weak notrumps that are licensed to bid over it is very small (zero?). If there exists a weak notrump that should act, there is only one bid that such a hand can make: 3S.

The auction is analogous to:

1NT-2H-2S (where 2H is an overcall and where the range of 1NT is not relevant)

Quote

If 2♠ is purely competitive, how do you bid an invite with spades or a GF with spades?


Reasonable to play that a jump to 3S is forcing and that DBL (responsive) followed by a spade bid is invitational.

IMO the concept of using the initial DBL to be roughly 13-15 and roughly balanced or some strong hand is a good one, but it is obviously smart to make some agreements about the (many) possible ways the auction might continue.

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#14 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2008-September-23, 09:22

gwnn, on Sep 22 2008, 09:38 AM, said:

X showed a weak NT or a good good hand


A well-tested defence in Denmark too, where multi has enjoyed 25 years of popularity.

(Personally I prefer it to be 12-16 and no good bid, thus a Marmic or a semibalanced hand with 5 cards in a minor-suit, can make a double too.)
_____________________________________

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.

Best Regards Ole Berg

_____________________________________

We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:

- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.


Gnasher
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