[paulg]

I was unhappy with the auction SWMBO and I should have had last night. The club slam is only fair but it would have been nice to get closer to it.

Scoring: IMP

1♠     2♦
2NT   3♣
3NT   Pass

---

Playing 2/1, West could have rebid 2♠ but 2NT looks normal. It is West's next bid that may make a difference, but a naturalish 3♥ is not going to excite East and 3NT is the likely result. Raising 3♣ to 4♣ looks wrong with poor trumps, no secondary fit and a heart holding you'd like to protect.

Any thoughts on how to bid this better?

Paul

In real life she mistakingly responded 2♣ and life was a lot easier!

Edit: fixed opening bid

[pclayton]

Perhaps its East that should move, not West. After all, makes West's spades AJxxx. and slam looks a lot better. E has a nice 5-5 and that juicy ♠QT.

However, I just can't find a lot of fault with this auction. Maybe you breathe a little easier in 5♣, but 3N looks reasonable.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I guess, it was a 1S opening?

I would not have bid 2NT, for me this would show
a bal. hand with 15-17, but if you play it as 12-14,
the bid is ok, I am still biddding 2S, but 2NT is fine.

If East knows, that West has 12-14, and obviously
wastage in hearts, Wests heart stopper should be
fairly solid, and if he assumes West has a 5322
shape, I dont think East should bid on, even if he
knowes about a fit, 5-3 fits are ok, but not great.

Of coure the 2NT bid will quite often be based on a
5-4 shape as well, but it wont change the probability
much.

So, noone to blame.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdonn]

I think the auction is fine, don't know why you think something went wrong.

[ASkolnick]

Once west limited the hand, he could always bid 3♥ on his way to 3NT. It does not prevent you from getting to any club slam which is 50/50 at best, but this would at least suggest West has trump support for east.

3♥ would not show hearts since hearts could have been shown with 2♥

[han]

I'm a 2NT purist and hate it here. So my auction would start:

1S - 2D
2S - 3C

and now I think west should bid 3NT even though he has 4-card support (and 3C is not bid with 5-4 in the minors, in responders case I am far from a 2NT purist).

[mikeh]

I disagree with the 2n rebid.. this should promise a 2nd diamond, in case responder has interest in a diamond contract... which wouldn't be a surprise given the 2♦ response. Of course, if you play that 2♠ promises 6, you are stuck... very few would countenance a 3♣ bid even if you didn't play (as most experts do, I think) that 3♣ delivers extra values.

In any event, after 3♣, west has a problem: he likes his hand for clubs: consider Ax x Axxxx AQxxx as an example... partner is going to pass the ultra-regressive 3N and slam is now a heck of a lot better than 'fair'.

What would 3♥ mean? It cannot be natural, in the sense of showing real length, since opener would have rebid 2♥ with 4 cards in the suit.

There are two possible meanings: the first is 'I have doubt about hearts... I need some help from you for 3N' while the other is 'I have a liking for clubs, but I can't go beyond 3N.. and I have heart values'.

I don't pretend to know which is the more useful in the long run, but the second meaning would have helped here.. whether it would have been enough, I don't know.

BTW, I would never get worked up about missing this kind of slam, which is less than 50%.

[awm]

Agree with Mikeh. I would play 3♥ as showing heart values and interest in clubs. My general agreement is that the fourth suit is "natural" after notrump has been bid and "asking for help" when notrump has not yet been bid. If hearts were really wide open, then opener could've rebid 2♠ instead of 2NT at second turn.

[pclayton]

awm, on Sep 17 2008, 10:36 AM, said:

Agree with Mikeh. I would play 3♥ as showing heart values and interest in clubs. My general agreement is that the fourth suit is "natural" after notrump has been bid and "asking for help" when notrump has not yet been bid. If hearts were really wide open, then opener could've rebid 2♠ instead of 2NT at second turn.

Disagree with this.

Usually 2N denies 4♣, so how can we have that great of interest in them? I think 3♥ expresses an interest in other strains besides NT. We don't have to have a 2.5 heart stop for 2N. 3♥ to me shows a hand like: KJxxx AJx xx Kxx that is looking for possibly a 5-2 spade fit, or a better club contract, or 3N if pard can provide some help.

[mikeh]

pclayton, on Sep 17 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

Disagree with this.

Usually 2N denies 4♣, so how can we have that great of interest in them? I think 3♥ expresses an interest in other strains besides NT. We don't have to have a 2.5 heart stop for 2N. 3♥ to me shows a hand like: KJxxx AJx xx Kxx that is looking for possibly a 5-2 spade fit, or a better club contract, or 3N if pard can provide some help.

This is an important point and I think that Phil is definitely in the minority here. Not a tiny minority, and a minority that includes some very fine players... but I repeat my earlier point that the majority of 2/1 players and (I believe) all standard players use 3♣ over 2♦ to show significant extra values.. this has been hashed out, at great length, in this forum and I am confident that this view, of how the bulk of experts play the sequence, is correct.

This means that opener can and should rebid 2N with, for example, Kxxxx AQ Qx Qxxx.... especially if we have the ability to later bid 3♥ over partner's 3♣ to show liking. The alternative, apart from 3♣, is to rebid the spade suit, and I don't object to that, other than to point out that this risks endplaying partner in the auction when he has a balanced or semi-balanced hand with no heart stopper.

[pclayton]

mikeh, on Sep 17 2008, 10:57 AM, said:

pclayton, on Sep 17 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

Disagree with this.

Usually 2N denies 4♣, so how can we have that great of interest in them? I think 3♥ expresses an interest in other strains besides NT. We don't have to have a 2.5 heart stop for 2N. 3♥ to me shows a hand like: KJxxx AJx xx Kxx that is looking for possibly a 5-2 spade fit, or a better club contract, or 3N if pard can provide some help.

This is an important point and I think that Phil is definitely in the minority here. Not a tiny minority, and a minority that includes some very fine players... but I repeat my earlier point that the majority of 2/1 players and (I believe) all standard players use 3♣ over 2♦ to show significant extra values.. this has been hashed out, at great length, in this forum and I am confident that this view, of how the bulk of experts play the sequence, is correct.

This means that opener can and should rebid 2N with, for example, Kxxxx AQ Qx Qxxx.... especially if we have the ability to later bid 3♥ over partner's 3♣ to show liking. The alternative, apart from 3♣, is to rebid the spade suit, and I don't object to that, other than to point out that this risks endplaying partner in the auction when he has a balanced or semi-balanced hand with no heart stopper.

Mike, I hope you aren't insinuating that I would rebid 3♣ with a minimum black 5-4. i think you know me better than that.

My point is that many minimum black 5-4's rebid 2♠, not 2N. While 3N can include some hands with 4 clubs, it frequently won't, since many of those hands have choppy heart stoppers.

If anything, 3♥ as a warning sign, tends to deny 4 clubs in my book. If we had a marginal heart stopper in the 1st place, and 4 clubs, why are we bidding 2N?

[mike777]

cardsharp, on Sep 17 2008, 04:42 AM, said:

I was unhappy with the auction SWMBO and I should have had last night. The club slam is only fair but it would have been nice to get closer to it.

Scoring: IMP

1♠     2♦
2NT   3♣
3NT   Pass

---

Playing 2/1, West could have rebid 2♠ but 2NT looks normal. It is West's next bid  that may make a difference, but a naturalish 3♥ is not going to excite East and 3NT is the likely result. Raising 3♣ to 4♣ looks wrong with poor trumps, no secondary fit and a heart holding you'd like to protect.

Any thoughts on how to bid this better?

Paul

In real life she mistakingly responded 2♣ and life was a lot easier!

Edit: fixed opening bid

this has alot to do with style. Many play 1s=2d=3c as extras and I assume they are stuck rebidding 2s in that style but then there are those that do not play that 3c shows extra and 2s shows 6.
In that style responder just assumes opener has a minimum as he almost always does.

So:
1s=2d(gf)
3c(extra not promised)=4c( slam try)
4d (rkc)=5c(2 with q)
p

[han]

I don't get part of the discussion. Mikeh says he would bid 2S (as I would) so then:

1S - 2D
2S - 3C
3H

would show doubt about hearts right? Not heart values for clubs.

If you rebid 2NT then I agree.

[mike777]

I do not really know the style where 2s rebid is minimum and only promises 5 but if:

1s=2d (gf)
2s(minimum only 5 spades promised)=3c (is natural and unlimited I assume.)
why not 4c rebid now by opener, support pard with support?

[han]

Because it is hard to get to 3NT once you bid 4C.

[mikeh]

han, on Sep 17 2008, 02:46 PM, said:

I don't get part of the discussion. Mikeh says he would bid 2S (as I would) so then:

1S - 2D
2S - 3C
3H

would show doubt about hearts right? Not heart values for clubs.

If you rebid 2NT then I agree.

agreed: my suggestion that one use of 3♥ was to show clubs was in the context of a 2N rebid... a bid that I would never make without a stopper in the side suits... even here, however, there is room to play 3♥ as expressing doubt: after all, Q10x opposite x is not a good suit for 3N

As it is, after the unlimited 2♠, that you and I would have rebid, 3♥ would become doubt about the contract...which doubt would usually but not always be concern about the heart situation... Axx would want partner to bid 3N with Qx, and the same is true with Jxx, etc.

[nige1]

cardsharp, on Sep 17 2008, 04:42 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♠     2♦
2NT   3♣
3NT   Pass

---

I was unhappy with the auction SWMBO and I should have had last night. The club slam is only fair but it would have been nice to get closer to it. Playing 2/1, West could have rebid 2♠ but 2NT looks normal. It is West's next bid that may make a difference, but a naturalish 3♥ is not going to excite East and 3NT is the likely result. Raising 3♣ to 4♣ looks wrong with poor trumps, no secondary fit and a heart holding you'd like to protect. Any thoughts on how to bid this better?
In real life she mistakingly responded 2♣ and life was a lot easier!

Iagree with ...

• ...Paul that the 2N rebid seems more descriptive than alternatives.
  
• ...Phil that 3♥ would now show doubt about strain or level. Again 3N is more descriptive.
  
• ...Everybody that this was a reasonable auction to a fair contract and nobody need blame themselves.