[Lobowolf]

Scoring: MP

No opposition bidding. Standardish system but with 12-14 NT.

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[TimG]

Gee, these look very familiar...

[Lobowolf]

TimG, on Sep 16 2008, 11:57 AM, said:

Gee, these look very familiar...

Oh, after a while all hands look the same.

[jdonn]

What is the point of threads like this? To show to yourself that if a bid doesn't always work, and you are in the minority who disagrees with it, everyone else is nuts? If it's just me then sorry, but I find them in such poor taste.

[rogerclee]

jdonn, on Sep 16 2008, 10:02 AM, said:

If it's just me then sorry, but I find them in such poor taste.

Not just you. This is retarded.

[pclayton]

How much better is 3N with ♠Ax? What if dummy has ♠xx opposite Ax?

What if North's spades and clubs were reversed?

In the other thread, North had the opportunity to get us to 4♥. Here, South used judgment to open 1N. Sure, 1♦ gets us to 4♥ as well, but it also may get us to a silly 4-2 diamond fit.

Bidding 3N over 1N with the North hand in the other thread is just bad bridge, even at MPs.

It's so easy to present a layout where just about ANY bid can be justified.

And it deserved to get flamed.

[Lobowolf]

Well, when it's addressed in the original thread, you get comments like "resulting is beside the point," so it seemed like a separate thread was a better forum.

I guess the real question would be, if the auction in this layout were 1NT-3NT (presumably making north's bidding blameless), and it led to a poor result, in an "assign the blame" thread, would the overwhelming consensus really be "no blame...just one of those things"? I'm inclined to doubt it, but maybe it would.

Ironically (in the Alannis Morrisette sense of the word) the point, to the extent that Josh's question isn't rhetorical, is to avoid resulting by considering a layout on which north doesn't have the 4th heart and see if south's role in the original post is still dismissed fairly cavalierly.

[Lobowolf]

pclayton, on Sep 16 2008, 12:09 PM, said:

How much better is 3N with ♠Ax? What if dummy has ♠xx opposite Ax?

What if North's spades and clubs were reversed?

In the other thread, North had the opportunity to get us to 4♥. Here, South used judgment to open 1N. Sure, 1♦ gets us to 4♥ as well, but it also may get us to a silly 4-2 diamond fit.

Bidding 3N over 1N with the North hand in the other thread is just bad bridge, even at MPs.

It's so easy to present a layout where just about ANY bid can be justified.

And it deserved to get flamed.

ok, fair enough. No more such threads from me in the future. FWIW, I wasn't trying to justify 3NT, but to subject 1NT to a little more scrutiny than it had been getting.

[cherdano]

I would bid 1N-3N. Wtp? Next hand.

[pclayton]

Lobowolf, on Sep 16 2008, 09:21 AM, said:

pclayton, on Sep 16 2008, 12:09 PM, said:

How much better is 3N with ♠Ax? What if dummy has ♠xx opposite Ax? 

What if North's spades and clubs were reversed? 

In the other thread, North had the opportunity to get us to 4♥. Here, South used judgment to open 1N. Sure, 1♦ gets us to 4♥ as well, but it also may get us to a silly 4-2 diamond fit.

Bidding 3N over 1N with the North hand in the other thread is just bad bridge, even at MPs.

It's so easy to present a layout where just about ANY bid can be justified.

And it deserved to get flamed.

ok, fair enough. No more such threads from me in the future. FWIW, I wasn't trying to justify 3NT, but to subject 1NT to a little more scrutiny than it had been getting.

Well, I think its fine to scrutinize 1N. But 2♣ (thread-jumping here) is blatantly obvious.

I think hands like this are a lot of the reason weak NT-ers tend not to open them. I mean, if 1N isn't an option, what is the proper rebid after 1♦ - 1♠?

Perhaps a solution might be to pass 12 counts like this, open 1N on 13's and 1♦ with 14 (and rebid 1N). Or something along those lines.

[EricK]

Lobowolf, on Sep 16 2008, 05:21 PM, said:

pclayton, on Sep 16 2008, 12:09 PM, said:

How much better is 3N with ♠Ax? What if dummy has ♠xx opposite Ax? 

What if North's spades and clubs were reversed? 

In the other thread, North had the opportunity to get us to 4♥. Here, South used judgment to open 1N. Sure, 1♦ gets us to 4♥ as well, but it also may get us to a silly 4-2 diamond fit.

Bidding 3N over 1N with the North hand in the other thread is just bad bridge, even at MPs.

It's so easy to present a layout where just about ANY bid can be justified.

And it deserved to get flamed.

ok, fair enough. No more such threads from me in the future. FWIW, I wasn't trying to justify 3NT, but to subject 1NT to a little more scrutiny than it had been getting.

If South chooses to pass (which would be many people's first choice, or second choice after 1NT) then the bidding could easily go 1NT 2♣ 2♦ 3NT. If South opens 1♦ which is the "standard" opening on this hand, it might easily go 1♦ 3NT. Avoiding 3NT on these isn't easy at MPs playing a standardish system (whether or not you play a weak NT!)

[matmat]

I would bid 1NT-3NT, then go down and complain about the hand on the forums. Next deal, please.

[MFA]

pclayton, on Sep 16 2008, 12:32 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Sep 16 2008, 09:21 AM, said:

pclayton, on Sep 16 2008, 12:09 PM, said:

How much better is 3N with ♠Ax? What if dummy has ♠xx opposite Ax? 

What if North's spades and clubs were reversed? 

In the other thread, North had the opportunity to get us to 4♥. Here, South used judgment to open 1N. Sure, 1♦ gets us to 4♥ as well, but it also may get us to a silly 4-2 diamond fit.

Bidding 3N over 1N with the North hand in the other thread is just bad bridge, even at MPs.

It's so easy to present a layout where just about ANY bid can be justified.

And it deserved to get flamed.

ok, fair enough. No more such threads from me in the future. FWIW, I wasn't trying to justify 3NT, but to subject 1NT to a little more scrutiny than it had been getting.

Well, I think its fine to scrutinize 1N. But 2♣ (thread-jumping here) is blatantly obvious.

I think hands like this are a lot of the reason weak NT-ers tend not to open them. I mean, if 1N isn't an option, what is the proper rebid after 1♦ - 1♠?

Perhaps a solution might be to pass 12 counts like this, open 1N on 13's and 1♦ with 14 (and rebid 1N). Or something along those lines.

A kind of "when fixed - stay fixed" extension. Seriously, what's the hurry with opening this very marginal hand, when the system will cause us so much trouble? A stiff spade honour is a big-big flaw, no matter what the macho debaters postulate.

[awm]

1♦(1) - 2NT(2)
3♠(3) - 4♣(4)
5♣(5) - Pass

(1) Natural. No reason to open 1NT with a singleton.
(2) Natural game force, 12-14 or thereabouts. No 4M, likely no 5m.
(3) Shortness.
(4) Natural, likely 3334 (no 4♦) doesn't want to play 3NT opposite spade shortness.
(5) Very minimum hand with club fit.

[jdonn]

awm, on Sep 16 2008, 05:50 PM, said:

No reason to open 1NT with a singleton.

That is untrue, there is a huge reason. How much that reason weighs on you relative to other ones is of course up to you.

[cherdano]

awm, on Sep 16 2008, 04:50 PM, said:

1♦(1) - 2NT(2)
3♠(3) - 4♣(4)
5♣(5) - Pass

(1) Natural. No reason to open 1NT with a singleton.
(2) Natural game force, 12-14 or thereabouts. No 4M, likely no 5m.
(3) Shortness.

This is doubtful. Showing shortness with a singleton ace will lead partner to choose the wrong game very often (especially given that we are just 1444 and we could also be 1354 or 1363 for this bid?).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1D (1) - 3NT (2)
Pass (3)

(1) As I said in the other thread, opening 1NT
is fine, if I do it or not, is a matter of mood,
and heavily depend on some esoteric sun moon
constellations

(2) 13-15 bal., denying a 4 card major, but either minor
could be a 4 card suit.

(3) What else? Ok, opener knows (!), that the partnership
has at best 4 spades beweent them, but there is no
reason to believe the 4-4 fit in the minor to play better
than 3NT, sometimes you have 9 running tricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[awm]

jdonn said:

That is untrue, there is a huge reason. How much that reason weighs on you relative to other ones is of course up to you.

I would like to hear what this reason is. Is it that we have twelve high card points unbalanced? Is it so we can miss a game in hearts? So we can play our 5-1 spade fit? So we can reach a bad 3NT when partner has a weak spade holding? So we can miss a minor suit slam? Honestly I have seen virtually no good results come from opening notrump on these hands. And it's not even like we have a difficult rebid problem after 1♦-1♠ -- we bid 2♣ which shows diamonds and clubs and a minimum of around 12 hcp. This is different from a strong notrump system where 1444 with 16 hcp presents a possibility of missing game after 1♦-1♠-2♣ (I still wouldn't open 1NT on such a hand).

cherdano said:

This is doubtful. Showing shortness with a singleton ace will lead partner to choose the wrong game very often (especially given that we are just 1444 and we could also be 1354 or 1363 for this bid?).

I disagree. Our shape is not relevant here -- partner is supposed to bid 3NT with a strong spade holding and otherwise bid 4♦ with four of them or 4♣ with four clubs and no four diamonds. Partner is evaluating his spade holding, not his "degree of fit" for any particular suit. As to showing shortness on singleton ace, this particular hand has a lot of slow cards and no long suit. It will be very difficult to make 3NT if the ♠A is our only stopper; in fact even if partner has a second stopper like Kxx or QJx, this reduces the number of aces in partner's hand and it will be tough to develop our tricks fast enough to make 3NT. I would be willing to bet that most partner hands with 33(34)/(23)44 shape and Kxx or weaker spades will play better in 5m than 3nt.

[han]

awm, on Sep 17 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

Honestly I have seen virtually no good results come from opening notrump on these hands.

In the Las Vegas swiss I ended up bidding 1NT 3 hands in a row. On the first hand I had rebid 1NT with a singleton and we had a good result. On the second hand I overcalled 1NT over 1H with a singleton diamond. The opponents were clearly surprised when I ruffed the second diamond trick.

On the third hand I had some 4333 16-count and opened 1NT. The opponents completely misdefended, I suspect that they were playing me for a stiff somewhere. This is an advantage of bidding 1NT with a stiff that I had never considered before.

[han]

awm, on Sep 17 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

I would be willing to bet that most partner hands with 33(34)/(23)44 shape and Kxx or weaker spades will play better in 5m than 3nt.

OK I'm taking you up on this bet, will post results later.