[calabres]

In a recent live tourney, half of the room bid game and other stays in a partial score.

Who must invite?

Opener hold:

♥ Ax
♥ j8xx
♦ kj
♣ kj9xx

Responder hold:

♥ 987xx
♥ AKxxx
♦ xxx

Bid goes:

1♣-P-1♥-P-1NT-2♥-P-P-P

Some player defend opener must bid 3♥
Others defenf responder must bid 3♥

For me reponder must make a checkback?

Please be my guest and let me know your opinion.
Thanks

[blackshoe]

For me, responder's jump to 3♥ instead of bidding 2♥ on this auction would be FG. Responder doesn't have the hand for that. Again for me, opener would need more than a minimum (about 6 losers instead of 7) to invite or explore for game in hearts after responder bids 2♥. He doesn't have that hand. I think the folks who got to game overbid their hand(s) and got lucky.

[babalu1997]

calabres, on Sep 6 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

In a recent live tourney, half of the room bid game and other stays in a partial score.

Who must invite?

Opener hold:

♥ Ax
♥ j8xx
♦ kj
♣ kj9xx

Responder hold:

♥ 987xx
♥ AKxxx
♦ xxx

Bid goes:

1♣-P-1♥-P-1NT-2♥-P-P-P

Some player defend opener must bid 3♥
Others defenf responder must bid 3♥

For me reponder must make a checkback?

Please be my guest and let me know your opinion.
Thanks

Opener rebid 1nt, HIS HAND IS LIMITED, and must forever remain silent until provoked by responder.

2H IS NOT ENOUGH PROVOCATION

[mike777]

North has an easy 3h bid.

with no discussion 2h is not weak.

[Stephen Tu]

mike777, on Sep 6 2008, 09:11 AM, said:

North has an easy 3h bid.

with no discussion 2h is not weak.

Neither of these statements are true. 2h is 5+-4+ in the majors, non-invitational. Responder should use whatever invitational gadget is available. Unfortunately in bare SAYC there isn't one. But all good players have some sort of gadget to invite here.

[mike777]

Stephen Tu, on Sep 6 2008, 09:43 PM, said:

mike777, on Sep 6 2008, 09:11 AM, said:

North has an easy 3h bid.

with no discussion 2h is not weak.

Neither of these statements are true. 2h is 5+-4+ in the majors, non-invitational. Responder should use whatever invitational gadget is available. Unfortunately in bare SAYC there isn't one. But all good players have some sort of gadget to invite here.

on bbo with no discussion I stand by I would never pass...too dangerous....in fact even with a little discussion too dangerous......

with discussion...this is a clear invite 100% I bid 3h pass blame....

[Stephen Tu]

You'll play an awful lot of 3h down 1 when 2h was making. If partner is in the habit of making NF bids on inv or GF hands then accidents will teach him faster to choose the proper bid than trying to cater to them by keeping the auction alive.

Every book on std american describes this sequence the same, 2h NF, don't go around trying to confuse people.

[kenrexford]

This is very confusing, as there is a pissing pass and as the symbol "♥" appears to be intended for ♠.

So, I think the auction is:

1♣-P-1♠-P-
1NT-P-2♥-P-
P-P

It seems to me that Responder should bid whatever is checkback. When he in practice hears about the fourth heart, that's enough. He was expecting to rebid 3♥ after 2♠, 2NT, or 3♣, but the nine-fit with this shape probably is sufficient.

[han]

Playing 2-way checkback:

1C - 1S
1NT - 2C (forces 2D)
2D - 2H (invitational)
3H - 4H

Opener's hand really isn't that great given that responder has the majors. But with 4 hearts and Ax of spades he should probable show some sign of life and responder has an easy 4H bid.

[mike777]

2c does not force 2d in 2 way checkback. Object strongly.

In fact even in xyz it does not in some versions 100% (mine).

Given all the confusion in this auction.....I repeat north should not pass 2h...on bbo or in real life without many many hours of discussion.

[peachy]

blackshoe, on Sep 6 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

For me, responder's jump to 3♥ instead of bidding 2♥ on this auction would be FG. Responder doesn't have the hand for that. Again for me, opener would need more than a minimum (about 6 losers instead of 7) to invite or explore for game in hearts after responder bids 2♥. He doesn't have that hand. I think the folks who got to game overbid their hand(s) and got lucky.

If NMF is in the system, then 3H is invite with 5-5 and forcing hands go through the NMF first. Here responder should have engaged an invitational sequence, but if they played SAYC or the like, there is no such animal existing EXCEPT responder's new suit which opener should not have passed unless they had specifically agreed that 2H in that auction is Pass or correct.

If they had checkback in system, then opener can pass 2 H because responder has denied invitational or better hand with the 2H bid (except that THIS responder did have an invit hand IMO).

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

If NMF is in the system, then 3H is invite with 5-5 and forcing hands go through the NMF first

I don't think there is universal agreement on this. It's playable to do the opposite, and I think this is how it is in "Modern Bridge Conventions" by Root & Pavlicek IIRC. Something to discuss with partners.

2c forces 2d in 2-way puppet checkback.

Ignore mike777 on whether north can pass 2h, I don't think it's right to cater to ignorant partners, just perpetuates the mistakes. Pass, teach them a lesson, create better bridge players who will be compatible with more advanced partners, instead of reinforcing in their minds the wholly incorrect notion that 2h is forcing. I would pass 2h with any partner online or real life, no discussion necessary at all whether that is forcing IMO. It is 100% NF for any non total novice bridge player unless they learned from bad teachers.

[JoAnneM]

this is a 3h rebid by responder, not 2h. Did anyone notice the club void?

[matmat]

JoAnneM, on Sep 6 2008, 11:56 PM, said:

this is a 3h rebid by responder, not 2h. Did anyone notice the club void?

I did, but that's also the suit partner opened, it doesn't seem like it might be as big of an asset as it would be over a ♦ opening.

[jdonn]

Strongly agree with 2♥ by south, no reason to get higher. Sure it would be nice to show 5-5 weak instead of 5-4 weak, but I don't know a way to do it. Over that it seems clear to me north should bid 3♥, and of course south would go.

[lilboyman]

It seems to me that the first response of 1 Spade complicated this auction. I would have preferred 1 H over the opening bid. This allows opener to show the heart fit and then responder has an easy raise to game. If opener has 4 spades they will be shown over 1 H. If 1N is bid over 1 H, responder can pass or bid 2 S to show the distributional 2 suiter and suggest good playing strength.

[matmat]

lilboyman, on Sep 7 2008, 07:34 PM, said:

It seems to me that the first response of 1 Spade complicated this auction. I would have preferred 1 H over the opening bid. This allows opener to show the heart fit and then responder has an easy raise to game. If opener has 4 spades they will be shown over 1 H. If 1N is bid over 1 H, responder can pass or bid 2 S to show the distributional 2 suiter and suggest good playing strength.

2S doesn't just suggest good playing strength. It forces to game.
bidding 1H first is blatantly wrong, imo.

[the hog]

This is a clear 2H bid after 1NT.
I can't understand some of the nonsense posted here.
2H is non forcing.
The first response has to be 1S, not 2H.
Agree with Han's sequence of 2C forcing 2D and now 2H invitational.

[mikeh]

Mike777 and lilboyman are both out to lunch, and I truly hope that no advancing player pays any real attention to their posts on this one.

The 2♥ rebid is NON-INVITATIONAL. It may in fact be based on extreme weakness, but standard methods permit a wide range of strength here, and so opener is permitted to raise with a super-max. The north hand is max, but it is a real question as to whether it warrants a raise... of course, if opener does raise, responder has an easy acceptance.

For those who think that the 3♥ raise by opener is clear, bear in mind that responder would bid 2♥ with Qxxxx Kxxxx xx x as well as his actual hand, and even 2♥ would fail much of the time (and he could have similar values with 5=4=2=2).

Now, meckwell removes some of the uncertainty about responder's hand, but we cannot assume that meckwell is in use. It certainly isn't standard.

As for the nonsense about responding 1♥... that is so silly that words almost elude me. The only excuse for doing so would be if we decided to treat the 5 card spade suit as a 4 carder, based on it's weakness.... but if we did (And I strongly suggest we shouldn't), we surely cannot then reverse over 1N!

And mike's last post was that 2 way stayman (or checkback) did not involve responder's 2♣ over opener's 1N rebid as forcing a 2♦ bid. I am not going to claim that there are no variants in which opener has options other than 2♦, but I am going to say that I don't know of any, and I can't imagine ever agreeing to play such a method.

[awm]

Some of the auctions here seem kind of like resulting to me. Sure the south hand is great when north has four hearts, but much of the time he will not. It seems like inviting on the south cards could easily reach more bad games than good ones. And while inviting on the north hand over 2♥ NF gets you to game here, south could easily have a worse hand for that sequence and you get to play 3♥ going down.

Even with the actual hands, how good is 4♥? Obviously if hearts are 2-2 you should make, but if they are 3-1 you have one loser in each of three suits, and you will need to guess diamonds and may well also need spades 3-3 (else you must ruff a diamond and two spades, which means you can't pull two rounds of trump early and might take the risk of over-ruffs).