[inquiry]

In a thread in the SAYC and 2/1 Discussion forum, cnszsun asked how to bid this grand slam? (link active).

In reply to his post, several of us (me include), mentioned a method were if the auction goes as follows.

1♣ 1♥
3♣

Opener is showing a good 6 card plus suit, a good hand, and three card support for responders major. Some suggested this jump was forcing, others, like myself, think while encourageing this 3♣ bid should not be forcing. I am starting this thread for people who 1) Believe or play or would like to consider playing this jump to three of a minor as good hand with good suit and 3 card fit for major, and 2) To discuss issues like the following

• Is the jump to 3♣ forcing or only invintational
  
• What do you do with great one suited club hand when you lack three card support
  
• How do you play a jump to 2NT over 1♥ deny 4♠? Could you imagine using for anything but balanced 18-19?

There is some fuzzyness in here among different treatments. So i will start by addressing these issues myself, and then we can discuss problems that might arise with my treatment, and suggestions others may have.

1) Is the jump to 3♣ forcing? For me no. But, I also have acol 2 of minor opening bids available for me, so the really really good hands with a minor one suiter are elimanated since I opened only 1♣

2) With the good one suited hands, without support fo partners suit, I can rebid 3NT or cheapest rebid in the other minor. This new minor by opener forcing tales a while to get use to.

3) How do you play a jump to 2NT over 1♥? I have switched to playing this as JAcoby raise by OPENER. This takes the direct pressure of 1m-1M-3M, as that bid is very limited. This is good to have a very narrow range on the direct 3M bid, since responder has to make a decision with limited knowledge. A range of 2 points is enough for this bid. 15/16 counting distribution. Strong, go through 2NT. What do you do with the balanced hands you use to jump to 2NT with? Hello new minor forcing by opener again.

It will be nice to see how others play these and to discuss follow up auctions with anyone who is interested.

Ben

[Flame]

A related questions
does
1♣ - 1♠
2♦

can have 4 card ♠ support ? (stronger then 3♠)

If it can then lets say responder now bid 2NT
now 3s i guess shows 4 card support.
then with only 3 card and 6 clubs you will have to bid 3♣
also with no 3 spades you will bid 3♣
You may prefer that those to bids for 3♣ will show same high card.
For this to happend your 3♣ shouldnt be the same hcp as the normal 3♣ (that got nothing to do with 3 spades)
This suggest to play the 3♣ as strong bid probebly GF and forcing.
I dont like it that much because i prefer my good side of the system to show the more freqent hands, and 15 hcp are more frequent then 18 hcp.
(maybe you can give 3♥ an artificial meaning and solve this problem)

[inquiry]

Flame, on Apr 6 2004, 04:49 PM, said:

A related questions
does
1♣ - 1♠
2♦

can have 4 card ♠ support ? (stronger then 3♠)

If it can then lets say responder now bid 2NT

Well it depends upon your agreements. When playing with Misho, we give up the immediate 2NT rebid (to show balanced 17-19) and instead use that to show all really nice four card raises except for 1) four card support and good six card suit (we jump to 4m), 2) four card support and side suit splinter with game forcing value, we can double jump in the splinter suit, 3) A distributional hand but not strong on controls (generally 6/5), we can jump straight to four of the major.

Of course, you can play some other way, but our nmfo (new minor force by opener) will never hid four card support for responders major. This is another advantage. When you got big fit, you can tell partner immediately....

1) Big fit with long good suit.. 4m
2) Big fit with side void (generally), splinter
3) Big bit otherwise 2NT....

Quote

now 3s i guess shows 4 card support.
then with only 3 card and 6 clubs you will have to bid 3♣
also with no 3 spades you will bid 3♣
You may prefer that those to bids for 3♣ will show same high card.
For this to happend your 3♣ shouldnt be the same hcp as the normal 3♣ (that got nothing to do with 3 spades)
This suggest to play the 3♣ as strong bid probebly GF and forcing.
I dont like it that much because i prefer my good side of the system to show the more freqent hands, and 15 hcp are more frequent then 18 hcp.
(maybe you can give 3♥ an artificial meaning and solve this problem)

The need to play 3♣ as strong and forcing, I think, is because no doubt you open some very good hands one of a minor. The very good hands I talk about are like 9 fairly sure tricks in a minor, 5 or 6+ controls, and a good suit. This hand, once your partner responds is too good to anything but force to game. For me, such hands are simply not possible, because I can't open 1 of minor with them. So n fact, when I have a long good club suit (to justify a jump to 3), I can not have such a monster hand. I include acol 2 in minor in my Multi 2♦ opening bid. Thus, the jump to 3minor for me, is already self limited. So all I have to do is separate out which kind of good minor suit I have. One with three card support or one without three card support (with four card support I can simply bid 4 of minor or 2NT). So we do this by using dirct jump to show support, and nmfo then rebid the original minor to show the otherwise jump to 3minor type hand without 3 card support.

And for me, a good 6 card suit, 15 hcp concentrated in my minor and partners major, and three card support for partner is a reasonable jump to 3♣..also with 15, I will have a stiff, because I open 1NT with 15 and balanced or semi-balanced.

Ben

[1eyedjack]

Flame, on Apr 6 2004, 04:49 PM, said:

A related questions
does
1♣ - 1♠
2♦

can have 4 card ♠ support ? (stronger then 3♠)

If it can then lets say responder now bid 2NT
now 3s i guess shows 4 card support.

Why can opener not simply have a strong 3-1-4-5 shape for this auction (ie delayed 3S raise after responder rebids 2N)?

[Flame]

1eyedjack, on Apr 6 2004, 05:49 PM, said:

Flame, on Apr 6 2004, 04:49 PM, said:

A related questions
does
1♣ - 1♠
2♦

can have 4 card ♠ support ? (stronger then 3♠)

If it can then lets say responder now bid 2NT
now 3s i guess shows 4 card support.

Why can opener not simply have a strong 3-1-4-5 shape for this auction (ie delayed 3S raise after responder rebids 2N)?

He can.
I understand that you will bid 3♠ next after 2nt, and you say that this doesnt have to be a four card. I agree but for this you need some agrements for 4 card support like Ben have.

[inquiry]

Ok, I was a little too emphatic. We raise directly with three or four card support on auctions like...

1m-1M-2M

There are hands with three card support that are too good for the direct raise, and too good for a simple 2m (original suit bid). So here you can temporize with a new suit and then raise the major. So that hand does occur, you can even have a fair six card suit. The requirement is a good six card suit and three card support. Misho also likes to use a fragment showing bid with a jump in the third suit, to show the bid suit, three card support, and shortage in the other suit.

Ben

[Cascade]

For the auction:

1m 1♥ ...

if you play a 1♠ rebid as forcing then 2♠ is free to show something ...

1m 1♥
2♠

I have been experimenting with using this to show three hearts and six clubs.

Of course you could play these the other way around.

It is much harder when responder has spades ...

but here are some possibilities...

1m 1♠
3♥ is free as is 3♦ if the opening was 1♣

1♦ 1♠
3♣ this could be freed up by playing 2♣ as forcing

[mishovnbg]

Cascade, on Apr 7 2004, 04:02 AM, said:

For the auction:

1m 1♥ ...

if you play a 1♠ rebid as forcing then 2♠ is free to show something ...

1m 1♥
2♠

I have been experimenting with using this to show three hearts and six clubs.

Of course you could play these the other way around.

It is much harder when responder has spades ...

but here are some possibilities...

1m 1♠
3♥ is free as is 3♦ if the opening was 1♣

1♦ 1♠
3♣ this could be freed up by playing 2♣ as forcing

Spoiler

---------------------------------------------------

Hi Dwayne!

We play with Ben fjs. In your examples will be hand with 3 card support, singleton/void in 4th suit. For Ben generally also probably show 4 cards in bidded suit (5+-4+-3), but imo is more importrant to show side singleton below 3NT this way, while rebid 3 of opener suit to deny side singleton/void with 3 cards support. This way can help to make right decisions about 3NT/4M contracts. You can look in our posts about transfer advances in competition, we have similar bids there too.

Spoiler

-------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[paulg]

We play transfer responses to our 2/1 1♣ opener principally so that we can:

• rebid 1NT with 17-19 (we play a 14-16 NT) .... which releases
  
• the 2NT rebid to show 3 (4) card support with 6 (5) card minor after 1♣/1♦ opener

This leaves the 3♣ rebid to show a good hand, strong suit and no fit, and is non-forcing.

Although there is a little bit of memory work needed for the 1♣ responses, the fact it comes up ALL the time means it is worth the investment.

Paul

[luke warm]

inquiry, on Apr 7 2004, 02:02 AM, said:

Ok, I was a little too emphatic. We raise directly with three or four card support on auctions like...

1m-1M-2M

There are hands with three card support that are too good for the direct raise, and too good for a simple 2m (original suit bid). So here you can temporize with a new suit and then raise the major. So that hand does occur, you can even have a fair six card suit. The requirement is a good six card suit and three card support. Misho also likes to use a fragment showing bid with a jump in the third suit, to show the bid suit, three card support, and shortage in the other suit.

Ben

we play 1m/1H/2H then 2S is an asking bid, 2nt is spade game try, 3c/d/h also game tries

after 1m/1S/2S, 2nt is asking... in both, after the asking bid, opener bids in steps to show his hand

[mishovnbg]

cardsharp, on Apr 7 2004, 08:01 PM, said:

We play transfer responses to our 2/1 1♣ opener principally so that we can:

• rebid 1NT with 17-19 (we play a 14-16 NT) .... which releases
  
• the 2NT rebid to show 3 (4) card support with 6 (5) card minor after 1♣/1♦ opener

This leaves the 3♣ rebid to show a good hand, strong suit and no fit, and is non-forcing.

Although there is a little bit of memory work needed for the 1♣ responses, the fact it comes up ALL the time means it is worth the investment.

Paul

Paul, please don't say to Ben about transfer responses to 1♣ opening, inverted to 1♦ opening, 1NT ♠ showing to 1♥ opening... If you follow all steps you soon or later will come ty NTC system - Ben's nightmare

Spoiler

-------------------------------------------------

Misho