[blackshoe]

lol!

[mr1303]

In case it makes any difference (almost certainly not) this occurred in the UK, so EBU rules and regs apply.

[Trinidad]

The TD shouldn't have given Ave+/-. He should have replied to your RHO: 'If you refuse to play these boards, you are forcing me to disqualify you and your partner and report your refusal to the league. That won't do anybody any good. So please sit down and play the remaining boards.'

If RHO then still refuses to play, the TD should continue with a loud: 'Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention for a moment?' and announce the disqualification of pair 13 from the competition.

If RHO follows the TD's instructions and plays the board, the TD needs to make sure that RHO is educated about how the game is played: The TD can (must!) sometimes be called (which is not an accusation of cheating) and the TD's instructions must be followed.

Rik

[Trinidad]

About the impact of jerks on the economy of the club:

A genuine, continuous jerk has an enormous effect on the club membership. At first, these jerks have little influence on the established membership since they just shrug their shoulders. But jerks do have a large influence on the newer members. Since the club organization (TD/owner or the board) almost exclusively contains established members, the organization tends to underestimate the problems that the jerks are causing.

I have seen one suburbean bridge club fade away because of jerks (from 20 tables to 0 in about 10 years). The jerks chased away any young, new members after about a year or two (they would start playing in the city) and the old members (who tolerated the jerks) stopped playing because they were getting older. The 'in between' members stopped playing due to a lack of opponents.

I foresee that one bridge club in my area will seize to exist in about five years which I contribute for 120% to two jerks. The board is reasonably active against these people (one is at the end of a one year suspension) and is working like crazy to recruite new members, but the damage that the jerks do to the club's reputation is huge. And this damage even continues when the jerks are not playing. A bad reputation is hard to get rid off.

If you want to beat a competing bridge club, the easiest way to do that is by planting a jerk there.

Rik

[sceptic]

from a very limited experience of live bridge, My thoughts are they are not in it for the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, imho the people that run them do it because they like doing it. it looks like a lot of hard work for little financial return. So I am not convinced it is for moenetry gain.

in a small club, if you eject all the jerks, you would probably, struggle to make complete tables, it seems to me the jerks help fill the tables , once you go down the road of banning people for infringements, however valid, then you may as well shut up shop, small clubs seems to have a lot of people that just want to get out a few times a week and play bridge, now from what I can see and from limited conversations with older people, a lot just play bridge to keep thier brains ticking over, something the younger ones seem to forget or not realise, also if all the old fogeys and jerks were not playing in these clubs, there would not be a club.

I also think that most people (certainly younger players) leave a local club to play in better clubs because of the standard of play, not some rude jerk, which I am sure they could handle at the table.

Jerks come in all shapes and sizes and more importantly all walks of life, you come accross jerks all over the place, learn to deal with them and learn to live with them, they may have some excellent qualities, bridge etiquette may not be their strong point, but I am sure they have some side of them that is worth knowing, if you just bother to look hard enough

[helene_t]

jdonn, on Aug 6 2008, 02:32 AM, said:

These comments about all the other poor players who will stop coming because the jerk wasn't banned for acting like an idiot one time are hard to take seriously. Every club I've ever been to had at least a jerk or two if not more

This isn't really an argument IMHO. The other side of the coin is that assuming that almost all bridge-clubs have some jerks, one could attract a lot of paying customers by creating a rare jerk-free club.

Then again I am not sure how many players at an average club think about this as seriously as the posters on BBF do. Some may think it is no big deal. Some may be upset about the bad atmosphere created by such conflicts but not realize that the jerk is the jerk and Mark is the good guy. Some might prefer just to try to forget the incident.

Where I have played, there have never been a person banned from a club. We have had players threatening others with violence, we have had players constantly yelling at their partner so that the whole club room resembled the baboo caves in the local zoo during the whole night, we have had players making unprovoked, insulting comments about the sex lives of other players, we have had players refusing to look at there cards during the auction but just reading newspapers and pulling random bidding cards, explaining that they don't need to focus on the game against such weak opposition. Zero tolerance? Not here.

[brianshark]

I suppose if you meet a jerk at the table and can resist the intimidation and still play your best bridge, it will toughen you up when you face the jerks you will inevitably find in the larger national competitions.

It seems likely that very new players are often too intimidated to return to the bridge competition when they meet a jerk, which is a shame. But hopefully, once established they won't scare as easily. Hopefully.

In an ideal world, jerks in all walks of life would be dealt with harshly and firmly. But in reality, it just isn't like that. Money isn't the only reason a club owner won't eject a jerk. The club owner may not know of the extent or jerkness that is going on. They may be friends with the jerk who may not be a jerk away from the bridge table. They may be intimidated by the jerk themselves. They may fear that friends of the jerk may leave if the jerk is banned. They may even not ban the jerk because they are not jerks themselves and banning someone seems awfully 'mean'.

People tend to put their head in the sands regarding things like this. They prefer the easy solution and hope things work out rather than take severe measures. It may not be ideal, but that's the world we live in.

[hotShot]

The majority of club layers play bridge for social reasons. A lot of them are under the impression, that calling the TD is a personal insult to them.
Unless you change that attitude, the majority of the members will think that if there is a jerk involved, it's the one who called the TD.

[helene_t]

Well put Brian, something like that was what I wanted to say, you put it better than me.

Then again, Rik's comments are also food for thought.

[matmat]

hotShot, on Aug 6 2008, 05:03 AM, said:

The majority of club layers play bridge for social reasons. A lot of them are under the impression, that calling the TD is a personal insult to them.
Unless you change that attitude, the majority of the members will think that if there is a jerk involved, it's the one who called the TD.

that's another problem. it's like school all over again -- tattle-tales are the real evil doers and culprits.

[SoTired]

Habitual Jerks are a problem. As Trinidad mentioned, they can destroy a club. They continually intimidate opps, make their own self-serving rulings, and chase away newer and/or shy players.

However, public humiliation is not a good solution. That, too, will scare away players. And it will alienate any friends of the Jerk (they usually have a few, don't laugh. And the jerk will spread terrible rumors about your club). But you have to remain in control.

I think the best response is a cheerful, "You can't refuse to play boards just because you are mad at your opps, deary." "OK, I'll let you do it this one time, and I won't report you to the <federation> like I am supposed to, but I have to give you zeros for those 2 boards and next time, I will report you. Please try to play nicely with the other children. Toodles."

[Echognome]

So your solution to the jerk is to act camp?

[SoTired]

Always! And hardly anyone gets nasty to a cheerful person. You'd be surprised at how many tense situations I've seen defused by people acting civil, cheerful, and humorous, but assertive.

[Trinidad]

I agree with SoTired that a TD's attitude can help a lot. If the TD is capable of convincing RHO to never refuse to play another board in his life and nicely obey the TD's rulings and keeping everybody happy 'at the expense' of not reporting this one incident, he has my blessing (just not in writing ).

But given that this TD shrugged his shoulders and automatically assigned Ave+/-, I am pretty sure that this TD isn't capable of doing that (whereas SoTired may well be).

Rik

[JoAnneM]

I speak from experience from a club that dealt with a "jerk". We put up with him for quite a while and then noticed that we were losing some nice players. So, after one particularly bad incident we sent him a warning letter. That worked for a few weeks. Then one day he was playing against a mother-daughter novice pair and the bidding went 1c-p-1s-p-p-p and he came totally unglued, threw a tantrum and accused them of having a secret agreement. This was a pair that probably had no agreements.

He was banned from the club for six months. That was three years ago, and we haven't had any trouble from him since. Those other players are back too.

Putting up with bad behavior just encourages it.

[jtfanclub]

JoAnneM, on Aug 5 2008, 06:05 PM, said:

The TD should have demanded that the player play the next two hands and when he refused then he should have been ejected from the game.

Not my job, as far as I am concerned.

My job is to run a fast, fair, and smooth game. I see nothing in giving A+/0 that prevents any of those three.

Will I report it to the folks that run the club? Of course, and I'll recommend a suspension. I'll do a recorder form too, to the folks higher up in the ACBL. And I'll warn the guy I'm going to do this.

But if he still refuses to play, I'm not going to be the one who kicks him out. The only reason why I'd kick somebody out was because of abusive/violent behavior or actions that interfered with the other tables. I give the adjusted score, and let the folks above me handle that stuff. They own the place. Who they let in is their business. I just tend the bar.

This only applies to clubs, of course.

[JoAnneM]

I think that has to be an agreement between you and your club manager. A club manager can actually set the tone of how much "control" a director can exert, mostly in the area of assessing procedural penalties, allowing late plays, banning certain conventions, etc.

Hopefully you have discussed these areas with your club management and have a firm understanding.

[blackshoe]

Heh. We have a player here who is fond of "strange" conventions — some of which are MidChart. So, when scheduled to direct for a local club owner, and anticipating the question of legality of the player's use of the convention, I asked the owner what convention chart or other regulation governs in her club. Her answer was "Just keep the players happy."

I still don't know which players it is that I'm supposed to keep happy, in a situation where somebody won't be.

I will add that a couple of years ago I was told by the "clubs" people in Memphis that clubs are "supposed" to post the governing regulations in their clubs. I don't know about other places, but that will not happen here. One club owner, when I told him what Memphis said, replied "I've been running this game for twenty five years. I've never done that before, and I'm not about to start doing it now." The ACBL, of course, doesn't give a damn what clubs do, as long as they pay their sanction fees every month.

[matmat]

blackshoe, on Aug 10 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

The ACBL, of course, doesn't give a damn what clubs do, as long as they pay their sanction fees every month.

and the club owners don't care what the players do, so long as they pay their card fees


and the players don't care what anybody does, so long as they get their masterpoints.

[helene_t]

But at least the BBF posters care about everything. They are lucky they have us.