[NickRW]

Scoring: MP

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Bidding is 1♦-3♣*-3H-5♣, back to you.

* 3♣ = intermediate.

Scoring is nominally MP coz that's what we play, but this came up in bidding practice at home.

Do you think you're in a forcing pass position - I'm really not sure about this one? We would seem to have the majority of the cards, but how certain are you that 5♣ is actually a sacrifice.

Would be grateful for comments...

Nick

[jdonn]

5♦. Don't want to invite slam, do want to play it, seems perfect.

[cherdano]

Just as an aside, what does pass-then-pull to 5♦ mean undiscussed? Choice between D and H, or a slam try?

[pclayton]

5♦ and I'm only guessing at this point.

[NickRW]

Thanks for your time and comments.

I think I owe you guys an apology. The right call is definitely 5♦ and it isn't even that close. I was guilty of over quick analysis. I thought the other hands were such that 5♥ was a make and 5♦ wasn't while 5♣ was only 2 off - but that was (or must have been) rubbish.

I feel I must offer an excuse - two of my youngsters who play together regularly are at one another's throats - one is good at remembering system, while perhaps being not so good at the close call judgement decisions that frankly no system will ever quite cater for. The other is a good natural bidder often getting the decision on whether to bid one more (or not) right in a comptetitive auction, but he forgets partnership agreements sometimes. This leads to some friction. So what I was doing to try to cure this was give them lots and lots of hands to discuss - some that focus on simple system cases - but maybe real hands, not textbook examples and some that feature some close competitive decisions. This involved me dealing heaps and heaps of boards and skimming through them for good examples. I threw the other 3 hands away, but from what I recall of them I think I just failed to observe that although 5♦ was off on sloppy declarer play, it can make if played right and 5♥, though it is was an easy make on sloppy/quite likely defence, was off on correct defence. So it was a case of trying to do too much too quickly. My apologies again.

Nick

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I am certainly in a forcing pass situation, because 3H
did generate a game forcing auction.
If you think pass is non forcing, you dont agree with
the description of 3H.

The question is, does it matter?

Not really, you bid 5D, happy to have the Queen of
hearts, given that you opened this at the 1 level, a min?,
partner may have something to spare.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[NickRW]

P_Marlowe, on Jul 31 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

Hi,

I am certainly in a forcing pass situation, because 3H
did generate a game forcing auction.
If you think pass is non forcing, you dont agree with
the description of 3H.

The question is, does it matter?

Well, no, it doesn't matter if you think 5♦ is the right call anyway. My query about it more affected what double and pass would mean, and, indeed, what pass and then pull would mean.

We actually play Acol (or a variant thereof) - which is replete in limit bids and most texts say relatively little about what is forcing and what is not. However a new suit at the 3 level was always forcing even in the old days of Acol and hearts being a higher ranking suit than openers leaves little room for bids which aren't some sort of game. So... game forcing?... Can do little else. Responder's hand was actually something like AKT KJ98xx x xxx - again if I remember correctly - with 4♥ and 5♦ both being reasonable contracts

Nick

[P_Marlowe]

NickRW, on Jul 31 2008, 02:25 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 31 2008, 05:03 PM, said:

Hi,

I am certainly in a forcing pass situation, because 3H
did generate a game forcing auction.
If you think pass is non forcing, you dont agree with
the description of 3H.

The question is, does it matter?

Well, no, it doesn't matter if you think 5♦ is the right call anyway. My query about it more affected what double and pass would mean, and, indeed, what pass and then pull would mean.
<snip>
So... game forcing?... Can do little else.
<snip>

If the auction became gameforcing, you are in a forcing pass.
Playing Acol I think it may well be in the spirit of the system
to play 3H as highly invitational, ... your partnership has to
answer this.
Some may claim, that this is not playable, but I dont think those
high level decision come up often enough to matter, and I think
there are factors like opening style which may make a difference.

If you are in a forcing pass situation, than there are standard
agreements:
Direct bidding 5D is weaker, bidding 5D after a pass showes a
slam invite.
Double being penalty and pass showing a hand with no clear
direction.

I seem to rember that there is a group which playes is different,
but would say the above is still the standard agreement.

With kind regards
Marlowe