[rbforster]

At our table, South started with a strong club and bid somewhat unconvincingly to 7♣. Could you do so more convincingly?

Scoring: IMP

---

Our auction:
1♣-1N 16+; H+minor
2♣-2♦ relay; H=>minor
2♥-2♠ relay; H=>D
2N-3♣ relay; x54x
3♦-3♠ relay; 1543
4♠-5♥ keycard in D; 2+Q
6♣-6♦ to play; to play (partner thinks we must play in D or H for our keycard ask)
7♣-P

As you can see, we got a bit lucky when partner's 2 keycards of K♦, A♣, and A♥ managed to include the trump ace. Either of the other cover cards takes care of the remaining losers together with the spade ruff, so I suppose this was a 66% grand at the point our mixup forced us to bid it.

[cherdano]

Why relay with a 4027 including a self-sufficient trump suit?

[FrancesHinden]

My steam-age auction is

2C - 2H
3C - 4C
4D - 4H
5S - 5NT
7C

2C= strong
2H = natural positive
3C = clubs
4C = clubs
4D = first round diamond control
4H = first round heart control
5S = GSF
5NT = 1 top honour

(OK, using 5S as GSF is a bit fancy, but we don't play Blackwood, if we did we can ask for aces over 4H)

Sorry, am I in the wrong forum? Why is this a difficult hand?

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 29 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

Sorry, am I in the wrong forum? Why is this a difficult hand?

It's not a difficult hand at all in your methods. Cuebidding just first round controls works great when you have nothing but first round controls. Making positive responses in suits like Axxxx works great when partner does not raise your suit.

[Mbodell]

This is a very straight forward hand for our system I think:

1♣-1♠ ; 16+ - gf balanced or both reds
1NT-2♣ ; r - both reds
2♦-2NT ; r - x5+4y with x<y
3♣-3♦ ; r - 1543
3♥-4♣ ; r - 4 controls (either AK♥ K♦ 6nt or A♥ A♣ 7♣ or K♥ K♦ A♣ 7♣)
4♥-4NT ; denial cues - 1 top ♥, 0 or 2 top ♦ therefore A♥ and A♣
7♣

[kenrexford]

2♦(4+ spades, strong, forcing artificial
2♥(0-3 spades, artificial)
3♣(just four spades, longer clubs)
3♥(5_ hearts, natural)
4♣(very long clubs, no heart support)
4♦(clubs OK)
4♠(RKCB clubs)
5♦(two without)

At this point, the worst possible hand for Responder would be something like ♠xxx ♥Axxxx ♦xxx ♣Ax. That's an anti-percentage grand. So, Opener bids 5NT. Responder, with the stiff spade and a third club, should have no problem.

[awm]

Here's Sam and my auction:

1♣(1) - 1♦(2)
1♠(3) - 1NT(4)
2♦(5) - 2♥(6)
2♠(7) - 2NT(8)
3♣(9) - 3♦(10)
4♠(11) - 4NT(12)
5♣(13) - 7♣(14)

(1) Strong
(2) Either 0-4 hcp, or GF balanced, or GF with 7+ AKQ points
(3) Natural, F1, can have longer minor
(4) GF relay
(5) ♠/♣ two suiter
(6) Relay
(7) ♣ longer than ♠
(8) Relay
(9) 0-1♥
(10) Relay; note that we probably don't want 3NT here
(11) 4-0-2-7 with 12 AKQ points; we are missing a king or two queens outside hearts
(12) Relay; we must have slam but might be off ♣K for grand (AKQx - AK QJTxxxx)
(13) 0 or 2 of ♣AKQ; thus AQxx - AK KQxxxxx or AKQx - Ax KQxxxxx
(14) To play; grand is good opposite either hand; we could relay and distinguish if we care

[rbforster]

FrancesHinden, on Jul 29 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

Why is this a difficult hand?

Maybe it's not, if you've got the right methods. In part I asked because I was curious what different methods people would use (asking for 2-1 controls vs 3-2-1 controls, exclusion keycard, reverse relay, etc).

Perhaps this would have been a harder hand, one which the strong hand would also like to play 7♣ opposite?

---

[Apollo81]

Rob F, on Jul 29 2008, 04:20 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 29 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

Why is this a difficult hand?

Maybe it's not, if you've got the right methods. In part I asked because I was curious what different methods people would use (asking for 2-1 controls vs 3-2-1 controls, exclusion keycard, reverse relay, etc).

Perhaps this would have been a harder hand, one which the strong hand would also like to play 7♣ opposite?

---

Neither hand is hard in TOSR.

Both auctions start 1♣...3♦ showing 1543.

OP:
3♥-3♠ (minimum)
4♣-4N (4 controls, ♥A xor K, no ♦A or K)
7♣

This hand:
3♥-3♠
4♣-5♦ (4 controls, ♥A xor K, ♦A xor K, ♣A xor K, no ♥Q)
7♣

[mikeh]

1♣  1♥
2♠  3♣
4♣  4♥
4♠  5♣
5♦  5♠
5N  7♣

Who needs a forcing opening?

2♠ = gf, natural, at least 4=5 blacks
3♣ = real support (else 2N)
4♣ = demands cue bids, strong slam interest, no interest in 3N
4♥/4♠ = cue bids
5♣ = may be an underbid, but a more aggressive call works as well
5♦ = committing to small slam
5♠ = cue bid
5N = anything undisclosed so far?
7♣ = yes, the club Ace

Or

2♣  2♦
3♣  4♣
4♦  4♥
4♠  4N
5♠  7♣

This is less convincing, at least to me

2♣ strong, artificial
2♦ waiting, gf
3♣ very strong (style issue, but I prefer 2♣ to really strong if a minor
4♣ we have slam potential and introducing an indifferent heart suit seems to be a waste of time... let's set trump
4♦/♥/♠ cue bids
4N responder shows extras, too good to bid 5♣ but not good enough to do anything else
5♠ cue, try for grand, since could have bid 6♣
7♣ a stiff spade and two bullets have to be enough opposite a try for grand.

[effervesce]

Moscito auction

1♣(1)-1♦(2)
1♥(3)-1♠(4)
1NT(3)-2♦(5)
2♥(3)-3♣(6)
3♦(3)-3♥(7)
3♠(8)-4♣(9)
4♦(10)-5♣(11)
7♣(12)

(1) 16+
(2) GF, 6+A/K/Q points, not 5440 shape
(3) shape relays
(4) Two suited without spades OR singlesuited minor
(5) Diamonds and hearts
(6) 5+ hearts, 4 diamonds, spade shortage
(7) 1543
(8) AKQ point ask
(9) 7 AKQ points
(10) Denial cuebid ask
(11) A/K/Q honor in hearts, A/K/Q honor in diamonds, A/K/Q honor in clubs, no 2nd honor in hearts
(12) Places responder with either x Kxxxx Kxxx Axx OR x Axxxx Qxxx Axx, both of which the grand is where you want to be.


I'm curious- why did you decide to keycard rather than AKQ or AK point ask and denial cuebid? Especially with a void.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Jul 29 2008, 08:28 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jul 29 2008, 02:02 PM, said:

Sorry, am I in the wrong forum?  Why is this a difficult hand?

It's not a difficult hand at all in your methods. Cuebidding just first round controls works great when you have nothing but first round controls. Making positive responses in suits like Axxxx works great when partner does not raise your suit.

Maybe I was too subtle.

My point was that these are indeed very old-fashioned methods ("steam-age") and, on this particular hand, they work like a dream. The alternative (with the DK instead of the HA) is indeed harder to bid for me.

As for the first/second round controls point: once I have made a positive response, I think it makes a lot of sense for the first cue to be a first round control.

p.s. Axxxx is pretty much my minimum for a positive response at the 2-level, but having a second ace makes me want to give a positive.

[cherdano]

All recent slam bidding problems have been posted under the Non-Natural System forum. Is this because natural methods will never find these slams/always find these slams/lead to uninteresting auctions?

[jdonn]

cherdano, on Jul 30 2008, 02:52 PM, said:

All recent slam bidding problems have been posted under the Non-Natural System forum. Is this because natural methods will never find these slams/always find these slams/lead to uninteresting auctions?

I think it's because they were bid under non-natural methods at the table, so the poster welcomes any type of auction. On the other hand, it's really annoying to me to post a hand in some other forum that you bid naturally, ask "what would you have bid", and have the word "you" taken completely literally by people playing strange methods when it's obvious that was not the intention.

[awm]

It is often the case in slam bidding that one person has to take an aggressive view at some point in the auction. When looking at both hands, it is usually easy to come up with an auction that reaches the top spot in pretty much any half-reasonable system.

The issue is that usually this auction involves a lot of decisions that need to be made by one or both partners, where an alternative decision would be just as reasonable (or perhaps even more reasonable) given the underlying methods. For example in Frances' auction in this thread:

Opener chose to open 2♣ rather than 1♣. Responder chose to make a positive response on a suit of ♥Axxxx rather than bidding 2♦ waiting. Responder chose to raise clubs on three pieces rather than look for 3NT or a diamond fit.

None of these actions were in any way wrong or at all unreasonable -- yet it is easy to see how a pair with the same basic agreements could've produced a very different auction which may or may not have reached the top spot of 7♣. Whether a pair using Frances' methods (and seeing only one hand each) would reach 7♣ or not is as much a function of the players involved as the methods themselves.

For this reason, it is sometimes more interesting to look at relay-style auctions to slam, since those methods generally reduce the number of options available to the two players involved. Typically there is really only one right way to bid the hands in those systems and whether they reach slam or not is more a function of the merits of the system than the good (or lucky) judgments of the players.

[mycroft]

Berkowitz-Manley:
1C-2D; (GF, H)
3C-3NT; (Qxx+ or xxxx+, 4+ controls)
4D-4S; (third round D control, so not HAK DK, so both bullets)
5S-6D; (second round control)
7C (spade ruff for 13, unless clubs break 3-0)

... and that's with the worst hand for their suggested transfer system. Playing natural, it goes 1C-1H; 2C-2NT and we'll have time to see if partner has the fifth control for 7N.

[rbforster]

In retrospect, I should have used denial cuebids rather than keycards (regardless of suit), since this will show the missing trump/club ace reasonably quickly and from there I can decide whether to continue exploring.
...
3♦-3♠ relay; 1543
4♣-4♥ AKQ control ask; 7 AKQ controls (3/2/1)

At this point, partner's worst honors are KQ♥+Q♦ which is only 4 controls, meaning that even without the A♣ he's forced to cover the diamond loser one way or the other with his other 3 control points. So it's safe to explore up to 6♣ for the A♣ and see whether the other controls will also cover the diamond loser.

4♠-5♥ location ask; honors: 1♥, 1-2♦, 1-2♣ (we know it's the A♣)

If the only heart honor is the A, we can bid 7. If it's the K, together with the A♣ is only 5 AKQ points, which means the remaining must be the K♦. With the Q♥, partner must have both diamond honors. We can't have enough for 13 top tricks in NT, so it's a clear

7♣-P

Using denial cuebidding here would find 7♣ comfortably opposite either the A♣♥ Q♦ actual hand, or the K♥♦ A♣ alternative. Denial cuebidding would have had trouble if responder had only 6 controls however, making it hard to separate hands with A♣K♦Q♥ from those with the red suit honors switched. For those hands, most methods will be difficult as keycards in clubs will leave the A♣ uncertain opposite a 1/4 response, while keycard in diamonds picks up the K♦ but could hold the wrong ace to go with it.

[JanM]

I gave the strong hand to Chip, without the weak one, just to check on how I thought we'd bid it. He opened 2♣ (I think that's pretty automatic with this hand, btw, it's just too strong for 1♣).
Auction proceeded:
2♣-3♣ showing 4 controls
4♣-4♥ both natural suit bids
7♣
The key to this auction (and it would be the same if responder had the KKA hand) was that when we have a 5 card or longer suit to two of the top 3 honors, we bid 2♠ in response to 2♣, so once responder had 5 hearts, s/he couldn't have AK of hearts, and therefore had to have the A of clubs and either both red Ks or the A of hearts, either of which took care of the diamond loser. Obviously, it's possible to construct a responding hand where there would be a spade loser: xxx, Axxxx, xxx, Ax for instance, although spades do sometimes split. But it's not likely (and of course LHO is pretty likely to lead a spade or a diamond on our auction, especially without a trump to lead - a diamond lead makes even that worst hand cold.

[mike777]

Rob F, on Jul 29 2008, 12:51 PM, said:

At our table, South started with a strong club and bid somewhat unconvincingly to 7♣. Could you do so more convincingly?

Scoring: IMP

---

Our auction:
1♣-1N 16+; H+minor
2♣-2♦ relay; H=>minor
2♥-2♠ relay; H=>D
2N-3♣ relay; x54x
3♦-3♠ relay; 1543
4♠-5♥ keycard in D; 2+Q
6♣-6♦ to play; to play (partner thinks we must play in D or H for our keycard ask)
7♣-P

As you can see, we got a bit lucky when partner's 2 keycards of K♦, A♣, and A♥ managed to include the trump ace. Either of the other cover cards takes care of the remaining losers together with the spade ruff, so I suppose this was a 66% grand at the point our mixup forced us to bid it.

Not perfect:


2c=2d
3c=4c
4d??=4nt
7c


4d=rkc for clubs....yes ugly with a void and simplistic....
4nt=2 no queen.