[rbforster]

At the nationals, I ran into a couple hands that pointed out potential areas for improvement in our partnership's bidding. Consider the following (precision) auction that proceeds to an invitational 2NT by responder -

1♥-1N     5+ major, ~9-15 pts; forcing
2♦-2N     3+ (usually 4+); natural invitiation

At this point, it seems likely that 3♦ needs to be a weak distributional hand (5/5+) trying to get out in a suit, and likewise 3♥ (perhaps on a weak 6-4). On the other hand, 3♣ doesn't have much of a natural meaning (unless you want to cater exactly to 0544's maximums), and there are opening hands that want to accept responder's invitation but still have not shown their 6 hearts (good 6-4's). These want to play in 4♥ opposite a doubleton or 3N otherwise. In this framework, it's not clear how to get to 4♥ except by bidding it, which leaves something to be desired when it's a 6-1 fit. Perhaps something like this would work better here:

1M-1♠ or 1N(f)
2m-2N

3♣ - artificial and min, scrambling. Asks for responder's preference between opener's suits (including pass). Usually a distributional hand with 5/5+.
   P  - prefers ♣ to M if clubs bid
   3♦ - prefers ♦ to M if diamonds bid; if not, 5+♦s natural and equal or better pref for M over clubs (catering to (50)44 which bid 2♣, and 1534 after 1♥-1N).
   3♥ - 5+♥s, equal or better pref for spades over minor (caters to 53(50)).
   3M - preference to M over minor, and no cheaper suit to bid naturally
3♦ - artificial and max, forcing. Asks responder to show any additional major length as cheaply as possible. Opener holds either 6M or 2OM or both.
   3M - doubleton support for opener's major
   3OM - 6 card suit that was unwilling to jump to 3OM to invite (checking for a doubleton with opener's (62)(41).
3M - min with extra length (6+), signoff
3OM - max with 3 cards in OM (53)(41) typically (or rarely (63)(40)) catering to 5M by responder or offering a Moysian in place of 3N if responder's 4th suit stopper is questionable

Likewise, if the opener rebids his major,

1M-1♠ or 1N(f)
2M-2N

it's similarly unclear what bids of 3m are naturally, especially in the style where 6-4 hands bid their minor first (weak 7-4's?). Perhaps these minor bids could be better used conventionally, although maybe stopper showing would be more useful than checking for support for opener's major (since with a good hand and a 7 card major, opener would have jumped to 3M). Then again, there are some seriously off-shape hands that need to rebid 2N on that sequence (like 5-5 minors with no OM stop or 5OM/5+m with no om stop), so I suppose one could try to cater to these somehow.

Does anyone else play special methods in these types of situations?

[cherdano]

Fred suggests some methods in his "Improving 2/1 GF" articles (easily googable).
I don't think playing precision or not makes any difference.

[awm]

I thought it was fairly standard to use three of a new minor in this sequence as a forcing checkback, and three of a previously bid suit as NF.

[jtfanclub]

Um, no?

After 1♥-1NT; 2♦-2NT

the main purpose of a 3-black bid seems to me to be to allow the opponents to figure out which suit to lead in a 3NT, either from the meaing of the bid or from a double (or lack thereof). For that reason, I would have all of the black suit bids be GF and implying a suit contract. Something like:

Hand A: 6+ hearts, enough diamonds to bid diamonds before rebidding hearts.
Hand B: 5-5 in the red.
Hand C: 5 hearts, 3-4 diamonds.

Pass: Weak ( C )
3♣: Strong ( A )
3♦: Weak ( B )
3♥: Weak ( A )
3♠: Strong ( B )
3NT: Strong ( C )

I don't think you need anything more complicated than that.

[rbforster]

Here is a link to Fred's article on methods after 2N (1M-1N-2m-2N sequence). They seem pretty good, although they spend some space bidding hands that aren't possible in precision (like 5/5 maximums which would likely have jumped the previous round). They do let opener describe his 5422 shape (direct 3N) separately from both 5431's which seems useful.

jtfanclub, on Jul 31 2008, 01:30 PM, said:

After 1♥-1NT; 2♦-2NT

I don't think you need anything more complicated than that.

Maybe not after 1♥-1N, but after 1♠-1N or 1♥-1♠, you want to make sure you find the 3-5 fit in responder's major since he'll rebid 2N with (52)33 routinely.

[jtfanclub]

Rob F, on Jul 31 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

Maybe not after 1♥-1N, but after 1♠-1N or 1♥-1♠, you want to make sure you find the 3-5 fit in responder's major since he'll rebid 2N with (52)33 routinely.

Well, 1♥-1♠ just isn't the same auction, especially if 1NT here is a catchall so 2♦ shows a fairly specific hand.

After 1♠-1NT-2♦, I would bid 2♥ with 5 in Precision, if for no other reason than partner hasn't denied 6 spades the way I play it (if he has 4+ diamonds to go with it). 2♠ may be the best place to play.

I don't see a real advantage to bidding 2NT with 2533.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Jul 31 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

I don't see a real advantage to bidding 2NT with 2533.

Avoiding a 5-1 heart fit?

[rbforster]

Edit: to clarify, I play 2/1 GF over our 1M precision openers.

jtfanclub, on Jul 31 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

After 1♠-1NT-2♦, I would bid 2♥ with 5 in Precision

If you play 2♥ as invitational with 5, that's fine but highly non-standard. Normally new suits at the 2 level are drop dead by responder after a forcing NT. 2N is the only non-fitting invitational call available in most forcing NT sequences unless responder has his own good 6+ suit to bid at the 3 level.

[jtfanclub]

Rob F, on Jul 31 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jul 31 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

After 1♠-1NT-2♦, I would bid 2♥ with 5 in Precision

If you play 2♥ as invitational with 5, that's fine but highly non-standard. Normally new suits at the 2 level are drop dead by responder after a forcing NT. 2N is the only non-fitting invitational call available in most forcing NT sequences unless responder has his own good 6+ suit to bid at the 3 level.

Huh. When I play 2/1, that's what I play.

But when I'm playing Precision, if I have a drop dead hand with no game interest, I just pass. I'm not saying I pass with 8 counts like CC Wei orginally recommended, but you're not going to find me bidding 1NT and then 2♥ with a 0 count either. Partner should feel safe bidding 2♠ or 3♥ in this sequence. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was invitational, but somewhere in the 6-9 hcp range most of the time. You know, invitational-only-with-fit strength. If I was strong enough to invite across a non-fit, I'd bid 2♥ the first time.

I was unaware this was non-standard. Is this a case where I'm going old-school again?

[awm]

If you play a 2/1 GF style (which is not part of the original Wei Precision, but many strong club pairs play this today) then there are several ranges. Assuming a fairly normal opening range of something like 11-15 (yes I know some strong club pairs open lighter):

13+ is game force
10-12 or so is invitational
7-9 or so is less than invitational, but you don't really want to pass the opening
0-6 is the range where maybe you would pass the opening bid, although you still might not want to with a very shapely hand (like KJTxxxx of hearts and out after a 1♠ opening)

Assuming 1♠-2♥ is game force, you need to find bids with the other hand types. You might have 1♠-3♥ available as something with 6+♥ (weak or invitational) if it's not used as a raise or strong jump shift. Otherwise you've got 1♠-1NT-2m-2♥ and 1♠-1NT-2m-3♥. The latter shouldn't really be bid on a five-card suit.

So you have to decide whether 1♠-1NT-2m-2♥ is:

(1) 10-12 and 5+♥
(2) 10-12 and 6+♥
(3) 7-9 and 5+♥
(4) 7-9 and 6+♥
(5) Something else

I suspect that the normal interpretation is basically (4), although sometimes you throw in hands with 5♥ and really awful misfit for opener's suit (i.e. 5-5 in the other two) or hands with less than 7 hcp where you couldn't stand to pass. This means you basically have to rebid 2NT with hand type (1).

[cherdano]

jtfanclub, on Jul 31 2008, 03:40 PM, said:

Rob F, on Jul 31 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Jul 31 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

After 1♠-1NT-2♦, I would bid 2♥ with 5 in Precision

If you play 2♥ as invitational with 5, that's fine but highly non-standard. Normally new suits at the 2 level are drop dead by responder after a forcing NT. 2N is the only non-fitting invitational call available in most forcing NT sequences unless responder has his own good 6+ suit to bid at the 3 level.

Huh. When I play 2/1, that's what I play.

But when I'm playing Precision, if I have a drop dead hand with no game interest, I just pass. I'm not saying I pass with 8 counts like CC Wei orginally recommended, but you're not going to find me bidding 1NT and then 2♥ with a 0 count either. Partner should feel safe bidding 2♠ or 3♥ in this sequence. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was invitational, but somewhere in the 6-9 hcp range most of the time. You know, invitational-only-with-fit strength. If I was strong enough to invite across a non-fit, I'd bid 2♥ the first time.

I was unaware this was non-standard. Is this a case where I'm going old-school again?

If you had read the original post, you might have noticed that the poster is playing a forcing NT. This might have been a hint that he is playing 2/1 GF.

[jtfanclub]

cherdano, on Jul 31 2008, 04:49 PM, said:

If you had read the original post, you might have noticed that the poster is playing a forcing NT. This might have been a hint that he is playing 2/1 GF.

You mean the post that starts...

Quote

At the nationals, I ran into a couple hands that pointed out potential areas for improvement in our partnership's bidding. Consider the following (precision) auction

Also, please note the title of the thread is: Invitational continuations in precision

Emphasis mine.

Standard Precision plays a forcing 1NT but not 2/1.

[jtfanclub]

awm, on Jul 31 2008, 04:46 PM, said:

Assuming 1♠-2♥ is game force

I don't know why people are assuming that. It was never mentioned in the OP, and they're playing a 9-15 opener. That's a very difficult range to play with 2/1 GF, because it's so rare to have a GF across a 9 count, and the invitational bids get all mashed up.

If he is playing 2/1GF, then there are going to be 15 counts he'll be bidding 1NT with. I don't see how you could reserve a rebid of 2♥ for a rare hand like a drop dead 6-bagger when you have hands from 8-15 hcp and a 5 bagger in hearts that you're supposed to untangle. That sounds like a mess.

[cherdano]

Ok I didn't realize classical precision used a forcing NT and 2/1 as not game forcing. Among the pairs I know who play strong club, playing 2/1 GF over 1M is definitely a lot more popular.

[cwiggins]

Understanding that natural is not fashionable, you might try the following agreements.

From K-S (sequence C-5) which uses a forcing 1NT and "light" 1M openings, after 1M-1N; 2m-2N:
3m = 5-5 signoff
3M = 6-card suit GF (with weak 6-4, rebid 2M over 1NT)
3om = if clubs, semi-natural, not encourging. If diamonds, non-forcing game try 5431 with singleton in OM
3OM = if hearts, non-forcing game try. if spades, forcing, short in om, could be strong 5-5
4m = strong 5+/5+ with no interest (or no way to express an interest) in 3NT


Or you could follow the guidelines of "Precision in ACOL" so that over the 2NT rebid
3m= 5-5 signoff
3M = 6-card suit game force
3om or 3OM = Natural (so shortness in fourth suit) and forcing 1 round

These aren't perfect, but clear understandings of what the "natural" bids mean will help.