[42]

Dealer: N
vuln.: both

N opens 3♦, East passes.

S:
♠J8x
♥AJx
♦8x
♣AKQ10x


What do you bid when the scoring is
a.) IMP
b.) matchpoints?

Have a nice day

Caren

[csdenmark]

Precision-Belladonna/Garozzo - 3♦ Sharif - 9-12HcP,Any 7 solid, No ace or king

- 3♥ Negative - no game
- 3♠ Game force - http://free.hostdepa...BG/BG-3D_3S.htm
- 3NT - Signoff, 2+tricks, stop unbid

Viking Precision - 3♦ - 7+cd, standard preempt

- 3♥♠ - Natural
- 4♣ - relay for suit quality
--step responses
--1. No ace or king
--2. Ace or king
--3. 2 of 3 top honors

Top honors=ace,king,queen but not jack

Caren as I know you also play standard systems - here the answers recommended by Bridge World:

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...bwsall.html#IVC

[helium]

3 nt in both cases

[the hog]

Pass of course! Is this a serious question?
What on earth do you expect to make? 3NT? In your dreams! I hope I make 3D.
Helium, you have been sniffing your own gasses. Show me 1 3D opener that has a play for 3N please!

[hrothgar]

42, on Apr 8 2004, 10:24 AM, said:

Dealer: N
vuln.: both

N opens 3♦, East passes.

S:
♠J8x
♥AJx
♦8x
♣AKQ10x


What do you bid when the scoring is
a.) IMP
b.) matchpoints?

Have a nice day

Caren

Easy pass

I expect to find partner with an uninspired 6-3-3-1 or 7-2-2-2

MAy be

986
Q4
KJT8532
43

Looks about right

I don't see any real play for game

[Flame]

I'll pass, but if the bidding continue 3sp p 4sp ill bid 5D.

[Free]

Pass, you don't have a major, you have a balanced hand and no extreme good values. 3NT might be possible if partner has the right cards, but it should be played by your partner in most cases...

[the hog]

"I'll pass, but if the bidding continue 3sp p 4sp ill bid 5D. "

"3NT might be possible if partner has the right cards, but it should be played by your partner in most cases... "

I cannot believe I am reading these comments! With nice defensive values you want to bid 5D which will have no play over a 4S contract which has good chances of going down.

3N might be possible? Only if your 3D opener can include
Axx Kx Axxxxxx J

If you are hoping for Jx xx AKJxxxx xx dream on; even with that hand you need to pick up the D suit. (Notice I nicely gave opener the J of S as well).

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

-------------------------------------

Playing with any of my partners, I will pass. But 3NT is possible, if my p have something like: xxx,x,AQJxxx,xxx. They can take their 4♠, but as long as K♦ is on and ♦ are 3-2 I am on top. 5♦ also can be game if my p hold: x,Q10x,Axxxxxx,xx with ♦ 2-2 and K♥ on. May be some players need theese shots, but not I.

Spoiler

------------------------------------------

Misho

[42]

Thx for your replies! Here is what happened:
I played rubber with two local heroes (one was my p) and another man. I went into the books for a while and my favourite bid would have been pass, but I thought that there is a small chance for 3NT and that was what I put on the table.
N had
♠-
♥Kxx
♦AJ109xxx
♣Jxx

The ♦-honours were not both third in E's hand and so 6♦ was lay-down while 3NT was 2 off (opps simlpy took 6 ♠s; unlucky that the man with the 6♠s was on lead ). And then the big lament began (very, very loud): 5♦ from me is a must with my hand (I did not even think of it, but another local hero who is a sound player said the same...). As ususal I said not much but to my opinion the opening bid was crazy because it is too strong for a preempt. Do you open with a preempt whith a void?

[csdenmark]

42, on Apr 9 2004, 10:37 AM, said:

Thx for your replies! Here is what happened:
I played rubber with two local heroes (one was my p) and another man. I went into the books for a while and my favourite bid would have been pass, but I thought that there is a small chance for 3NT and that was what I put on the table.
N had
♠-
♥Kxx
♦AJ109xxx
♣Jxx

The ♦-honours were not both third in E's hand and so 6♦ was lay-down while 3NT was 2 off (opps simlpy took 6 ♠s; unlucky that the man with the 6♠s was on lead ). And then the big lament began (very, very loud): 5♦ from me is a must with my hand (I did not even think of it, but another local hero who is a sound player said the same...). As ususal I said not much but to my opinion the opening bid was crazy because it is too strong for a preempt. Do you open with a preempt whith a void?

Caren this example is a standard 3NT opener.

[helium]

wow i hope pepole playing whit me dont open 3nt on this hand:)))

[EricK]

csdenmark, on Apr 9 2004, 09:15 AM, said:

42, on Apr 9 2004, 10:37 AM, said:

Thx for your replies! Here is what happened:
I played rubber with two local heroes (one was my p) and another man. I went into the books for a while and my favourite bid would have been pass, but I thought that there is a small chance for 3NT and that was what I put on the table.
N had
♠-
♥Kxx
♦AJ109xxx
♣Jxx

The ♦-honours were not both third in E's hand and so 6♦ was lay-down while 3NT was 2 off (opps simlpy took 6 ♠s; unlucky that the man with the 6♠s was on lead ). And then the big lament began (very, very loud): 5♦ from me is a must with my hand (I did not even think of it, but another local hero who is a sound player said the same...). As ususal I said not much but to my opinion the opening bid was crazy because it is too strong for a preempt. Do you open with a preempt whith a void?

Caren this example is a standard 3NT opener.

Looks more like a 1♦ opening to me.

If I had to pre-empt I would choose 4♦, and I think partner would raise to 5♦.

Eric

[Flame]

I think if you passed you would have hear 3sp -4sp from the opps with their 10 card fit, then just like i previously said i would bid 5D.
i wouldnt say this 3D is a bad bid, its a matter of style. the alternative for me is 1D.

[csdenmark]

Eric - 4♦ would normally be Namyats. In this example I would be happy to bid 6♠ over your 4♦-open. Partners?

3NT is any 7 solid and this is solid.

This little rule might be helpful:
- Preempt in NT - an option for NT-contract is excluded
- Preempt in suit - an option for NT-contract is included

The action has this scheme:

3NT - Round
- 4♣ = Tell suit,Round
-- 4♦♥♠♣ = trump suit,NF
--- New suit = CUE
--- NT = CUE of trump suit
- 4♦ = self-sufficient,NF
- 4NT =Blackwood
- 4♥♠/5♣♦ = Signoff
- 5♥♠/6♣♦ = Slam force

[inquiry]

42, on Apr 9 2004, 03:37 AM, said:

Thx for your replies! Here is what happened:
I played rubber with two local heroes (one was my p) and another man. I went into the books for a while and my favourite bid would have been pass, but I thought that there is a small chance for 3NT and that was what I put on the table.
N had
♠-
♥Kxx
♦AJ109xxx
♣Jxx

The ♦-honours were not both third in E's hand and so 6♦ was lay-down while 3NT was 2 off (opps simlpy took 6 ♠s; unlucky that the man with the 6♠s was on lead ). And then the big lament began (very, very loud): 5♦ from me is a must with my hand (I did not even think of it, but another local hero who is a sound player said the same...). As ususal I said not much but to my opinion the opening bid was crazy because it is too strong for a preempt. Do you open with a preempt whith a void?

Hi,

I would not have responded 3NT.... but what do you bid opposite an opening 3♦ preempt with the hand you posted earlier?

The answer is it depends. First, what is your partnership bidding agreement at a given vulnerability, and seat position? Some people use the rule of 2 and 3. This rule says if you are vulnerable, you are within 2 trick of your preempt, and non-vul within 3 tricks. IF your partner is using the rule of 2 or 3, a vulnerable 3♦ bid means he expects to be down no more than 2 with normal "Breaks", or that he has 7 tricks in hand. You are looking at 3♣ and 1♥ at least, so that = 7 + 4 = 11 tricks. This suggest the combined power is close to what is needed for 5♦. However, even if he has 7 tricks and you have 4, that doesn't mean they can't take, for instance, 3♠ before you can enjoy your trikcs, or can't get a ♣ ruff. So you need to investigate game possibilites. One way is to investigate is to start wtih a creative 3♥ bid. If partner bids 4♥ correct to 5♦, assuming (hoping) partner is short in ♠, over 3NT or 3♠ invite with 4♦, something like that.

Other people play more agreesive preempt style. Instead of rule 2/3 they use rules like 4432 or 5431, or 4421. These "rules" refer to the vulnerability conditions. The first number is when you are not vul and the opponents are, the second number when neither side is vul, the third number when both vul, and the last number when you are vul and the opponents are not. CAUTION, if you adopt something like the rule of 5431, the wild preempts (can easily go down 5), only apply to first or third seat preempts. A preempt from the second seat should always be "textbook" sound. Since both are vul, here, however, the same rules would apply and a game TRY is not unreasonable.

Now for the hand in question. This hand is WAY, WAY too good for a first seat preempt (I would open this 3♦ in third chair), even vulnerable. A quick example, if you have been following ZAR Point thread, a count of the hand shows that it contains, 29 ZAR Points, almost a full trick more than an normal opening bid, and if your partner happens to have a doubleton diamond (expected holding), this number will up due to "fit" points. Zar suggest preempts with a hand containing 22 to 24/25 ZAR points. I would have opened, like EricK, this hand 1♦ even without trying to count ZAR points... this isn't even really close, this is a 1♦ opening bid and I hope this example shows you why.

As an aside, if you apply the ZAR bidding machine to this hand, you find that it gives a contract of "6.2 Diamonds" (north 29 ZAR points, South 31 ZAR points, plus 3 distributional ZAR points for a total of 63 ZAR points ("62" needed for slam).

[csdenmark]

Ben the problem with 1♦ opening you have max. 6 cards. If 7 you open 3NT or your general strength is much high.

After 1♦ you will have a signoff in 3NT by responder in round 2.

For 3♦ the diamond suit itself is much too strong. The strength must be in side suits if any. As you have seen here the tendency will be to pass 3♦ opening.

[inquiry]

Claus,

My preempting strategy and yours are quite different. If I read what you said, you preempt with weakness in your own suit and stregnth in the side suits...

Quote

For 3♦ the diamond suit itself is much too strong. The strength must be in side suits if any. As you have seen here the tendency will be to pass 3♦ opening.

This is backwards to me... if you have stregnth in the side suits, your hand would be defensively oriented. And if you have a defensive hand, why preempt. But if the stregnth was in your long suit, your hand would be offensively oriented, and if offensively oriented, why not preempt.

Also, in my experience msst people who use 3NT as a "preempt" do so with a solid a suit, not AJTxxxx.

But let's agree to disagree.. .as you mind is made up on this hand, and so is mine. I open 1♦, and can not be swayed from that opinion (well 3rd seat, vul, I open 3♦).

[Flame]

"3NT is any 7 solid and this is solid."
I thought 7 card solid is AKQXXXX.
and maybe AKJ10XXX
And like Ben i dont play that premptives to show weak suits, actually its the first time i hear something like that.

[csdenmark]

Flame, on Apr 9 2004, 04:53 PM, said:

"3NT is any 7 solid and this is solid."
I thought 7 card solid is AKQXXXX.
and maybe AKJ10XXX
And like Ben i dont play that premptives to show weak suits, actually its the first time i hear something like that.

How does your 5♣♦ openers look like?

My guideline is what qualifies for Namyats in MAJOR qualifies for Gambling 3NT in minor.